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Featured The Bahai interpretation of Jesus, the crucifixion, and him in the Qur'an

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by firedragon, May 31, 2021.

  1. John1.12

    John1.12 Free gift

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    How Should Jesus have said it ,if he really is the only way ?
    John 14 .6 ?
     
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  2. MatthewA

    MatthewA Active Member

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    I gotcha thank you for your honest answer.

    If Baha'is do not believe Jesus is the only way to God - then that is an exploit to the whole bible - even excluding the resurrection regardless of spirit or physical.
     
  3. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    To be clear, Jesus should have said that He was the only way until the next Messenger of God appeared.
    Jesus was the only way to get to the Father, but only during the Christian dispensation, not for all of time.

    Dispensation
    1. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
    2. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
    3. a divinely appointed order or age:
    e.g. the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

    Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com

    Now God wants us to go through Baha'u'llah because we are living in the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah. That is my belief.
     
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  4. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Why do you think that it is an exploit to the whole bible?

    Do you really believe that the whole Bible is about Jesus? Only the New Testament is about Jesus, the Old Testament is about Moses and the other prophets.

    I just explained to Barry what Jesus meant when He said He was the only way. Jesus never meant that He was the only way for all time, Christians just assume that is what He meant because of other beliefs they hold.
     
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  5. John1.12

    John1.12 Free gift

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    But thats just what your religion says ..Any one can come along and claim they are really the the other way ,the truth and the life and also through me you can get to the Father . " But wait , I am really the only way the truth and the life ,today my name is melms " , " Nonsense , Melms was just the only way, the truth and the life for 2021 -2022 , now I'm the only way for 2022-2023 and my name is Earl '". " Pah! Tis I Fredrick the time has come and NOW I'm the only way ,the truth and the .......
     
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  6. MatthewA

    MatthewA Active Member

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    I believe Jesus Christ and what He said; not trying to change it to conform to my own viewpoints.

    I do believe in the Lord Jesus Christ truly and fully inside of my heart, who came, died, was buried and resurrected by God, for the justification of all people that Jesus Christ has overcome the world, sin, satan/devil, hell/she'ol, grave, and death.

    You can believe in which ever way you desire but to get to the Father in heaven according to the bible is by and through the Lord Jesus Christ. (John 14:6). The truth is no one can gain access to the Father without the Son. (Are there special occasions for those who do not cultivate in modern society, and that God take into account these things and they might not know anything about Jesus - Sure I would be okay with that.) Those who given the truth of Christ Jesus in what He says according to the scriptures and deny this have no access to the Father. It would be a lie to say otherwise.

    I do not understand why people desire to change what Jesus Christ says, and wanna make into something else. That is very hard to get around and I simply accept Jesus Christ and what He had to say about Himself.

    Now if you do not believe that; that doesn't have anything to do with me but has to do with how important Jesus Christ is to you personally.
     
    #66 MatthewA, Jun 2, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2021
  7. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    But that's just what your religion says. Any one can come along and claim they are really the the only way, the truth and the life and only through me you can get to the Father.
     
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  8. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    You can believe in which ever way you desire but to get everlasting life in this age according to the Baha'u'llah is through Baha'u'llah.

    “O My servants! Whoso hath tasted of this Fountain hath attained unto everlasting Life, and whoso hath refused to drink therefrom is even as the dead.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p.169

    “No man can obtain everlasting life, unless he embraceth the truth of this inestimable, this wondrous, and sublime Revelation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 183


    Of course, Jesus said the same thing in His Day...

    John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

    1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.


    But this is a New Day of God.
    That is your truth. My truth is that one can gain access to the Father through other Manifestations of God aside from Jesus. If your truth was true that would mean that only about 30% of humanity who are Christians have access to God and that would not be a loving or just God.
     
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  9. MatthewA

    MatthewA Active Member

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    Okay; my truth is not the question but if Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life or not; and if this is the truth. If you do not believe that it has nothing to with me personally; it is just simply rejection of Christ and what truth that He had brought.

    I have no more comments left after this one friend. Much love and you take care Trailblazer. I hope you and your family have a good rest of your evenings. Only God knows your heart, I do not and do not intend to continue the conversation.
     
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  10. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Jesus never said: "I am the only way, the only truth, and the only life for all of time: no man ever cometh unto the Father, but by me."

    If a dad tells his small child that the only bicycle he can ride is a tricycle, that does not mean that small child cannot ever ride a 10 speed or a motorcycle when he grows up. Humanity has grown up so they need more than Jesus revealed. That is why Jesus said He would send the Spirit of truth.

    John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

    .
     
  11. MatthewA

    MatthewA Active Member

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    Conversation is over now. (2 Corinthians 13:14) May the Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, love of God, and the fellowship of the holy spirit be with you if you believe. Take care you and your family.
     
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  12. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I just responded to that. To add to what I said, Jesus Christ is a way to the Father, and Jesus is truth and life, but Jesus never said He was the only way to the Father, and the only truth and life. What Jesus said in John 14:6 applied to His Dispensation but it did not apply for all of time.

    The Jews missed recognizing Jesus for the same reason that Christians missed recognizing Baha'u'llah.

    “And when the days of Moses were ended, and the light of Jesus, shining forth from the Day Spring of the Spirit, encompassed the world, all the people of Israel arose in protest against Him…..And this for no other reason except that Israel refused to apprehend the meaning of such words as have been revealed in the Bible concerning the signs of the coming Revelation. As she never grasped their true significance, and, to outward seeming, such events never came to pass, she, therefore, remained deprived of recognizing the beauty of Jesus and of beholding the Face of God. And they still await His coming! From time immemorial even unto this day, all the kindreds and peoples of the earth have clung to such fanciful and unseemly thoughts, and thus have deprived themselves of the clear waters streaming from the springs of purity and holiness…”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 20-21
     
    #72 Trailblazer, Jun 2, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2021
  13. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    It is always over whenever you tell a Christian that Jesus was not the only way....
    I will leave you to figure out why that happens.
     
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  14. MatthewA

    MatthewA Active Member

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    We can always talk about other things; What kind of cat is that in your photo on the red chair?

    You can believe whatever you want; you can continue to circulate what you are presenting it doesn't matter to me because you are going to believe how you are going to regardless of any truth presented to you ; I would agree that Jesus Christ came for a period of time, but he is still living today too, so I believe his truth goes far beyond us human beings and what we may claim.

    It is just annoying in all honesty; to be buggered even after presenting to a person the truth of what Jesus Christ had said, yet they desire to change and say no no that is not right.

    Well okay then @Trailblazer. That is fine. (John 14:6) is not true to you, okay then. You do not have to justify yourself, and I do not need to justify myself.
     
  15. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    That is my Persian cat Atticus, he is an angel. :)
    Is that your dog in the photo?
    I hope you understand that the same applies to you. :)
    I agree that Jesus is still living today in heaven and you will see Him in due time. Meanwhile He is in your heart. Jesus is in my heart too and I cry out to Him for help constantly. :)

    The truth Jesus spike will never pass away:
    Matthew 24:35 “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
    I believe whatever Jesus said, I just interpret it differently than you do, in some cases..
    I believe that John 14:6 is true, because Jesus wanted everyone to come to the Father by Him when He said that and for a long time afterwards. Everyone can still get to the Father by Jesus.
     
  16. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Who did?

    You did? Which post was it? I'd like to see the Baha'i "valid" argument. Other then, the physical body was killed but the spirit of Jesus was not and rose. And if that is big, profound, and great Baha'i answer, then my question is... Why would it be any big deal if the spirit of Jesus didn't die when his body died? Whose spirit dies when they die physically? Why would that be such a great and profound thing that God caused the spirit of Jesus not to die?

    But, if something rose again, it would have had to be dead. We can be pretty sure his body died. But surely not his spirit? The NT makes it sound like it was his body. A very special body that had flesh and bone and could eat but could also float of into space and appear and disappear. But then again, his body was pretty special before he supposedly rose from the dead. He freakin' walked on water. How is that possible? Then, allegedly, he brought a couple people back to life. And, supposedly, people came out of their graves and walked around Jerusalem.

    What's the Baha'i answer to all these? Symbolic... not literal... misinterpreted. And what is the born-again Christian answer? It happened as written. Lots of us don't believe that. But I also don't believe the Baha'i answer. I still think the best answer is that religious people make stuff up and then say it is "The Word of God." and that, therefore, it has to be true. Islam doesn't want Jesus to have been crucified, so they say he wasn't. Christians want him to have come back to life, so they say he did. Baha'is want all religious to fit together and make sense, so they say it wasn't literally true, it was symbolic. To me, that is just as bad. Baha'is are making Christians and Muslims wrong and themselves... the only ones that are right. Yet, without any real proof except, "Our prophet said so." And that's plenty good enough for Baha'is... but for who else?
     
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  17. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    For those of us that don't believe the Bible literally, the Baha'i Faith gives us an alternative. For me to accept the Baha'i Faith would mean I don't have to believe in a 6 day creation. I could believe in evolution and still say I believe in God. The flood? Same thing. I don't have to believe anything in the Bible as being literally true. I can make it symbolically true. Satan? Gone. He doesn't exist. Original or an inherited sin from Adam? Nope. We are born pure and untainted. Jesus is God? No, but very close to it. But the same with several other "manifestations" of God, like Moses and Krishna and the Buddha.

    But even more important, if I believed in the Baha'i Faith, I could say that all the major religions are true... that they are all from the same one true God. They are just a progression of new teachings from God. And that now, God wants us all to be one... to put our old religious prejudices aside and see that all people are one. What a great message. So why don't I trust them? Because I do listen to my Christian friends. Somethings just don't add up.
     
  18. MatthewA

    MatthewA Active Member

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    Okay CG didymus. I would say that there are some things in the bible that are literal/spiritual/metaphroical/Symbolic/Pictures and types in and through the bible.

    We are born pure and untainted?

    Man that is a very strong sentence structure; and I can not believe that.
     
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  19. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    #42 InvestigateTruth, Today at 5:18 AM
    And my answer is that it isn't a big deal, and that is why Christians don't like the idea, because then Jesus would be just like all the rest of us, a man that died and whose spirit (soul) ascended to the spiritual world (heaven). Only Jesus would still not be like the rest of us because He was a Manifestation of God and we are not.
    The consensus among historians is that Jesus was crucified and therefore He was killed. Here is the conclusion to a longer article, but you should read the whole article. The Christians and the Baha'is are right about the crucifixion Jesus and the Muslims are wrong. That does not mean that the Qur'an is wrong, but the Muslim interpretation is wrong.

    Conclusion

    I have used several standard aspects of reputable historical method (e.g. the criteria of multiple attestation, of embarrassment, of antiquity).

    And the assessment that Jesus’ death by crucifixion is factual is shared by a very wide consensus of scholarship, including many of those unsympathetic to biblical Christianity. In fact, the wideness of the consensus is almost unprecedented in biblical scholarship.

    I think it fair to say this manages the bias of my own horizons more than adequately. I am not so sure about others who ignore this consensus.

    And so I am confident to say the Bible is absolutely correct and truthful when it says Jesus died by crucifixion and therefore (although I am sorry to put it so bluntly) the Qu’ran is wrong when it asserts Jesus did not die this way.

    Crucifixion Historicity
     
  20. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    A bogus response as usual.

    It says "martyred", not crucified.

    This topic is not about "death", its about "crucifixion".

    @CG Didymus

    Do u think the question is if Jesus was killed or martyred? Or is it about "crucifixion"?
     
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