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The Ark was built by an amateur, the Titanic by professionals, evidence of Arc

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by God is love, Nov 24, 2005.

  1. stemann

    stemann Time Bandit

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    So who created God? I know its an old, old question, but i just want to show how stupid the ontological argument can be sometimes. So, first, answer me on this: Who/what created God?

    What??????? So why the heck are all Christians taught from the Bible??? Who is to say what is 'infantile' or 'holy' in it???

    A possible answer for a theist could be that he has done his part, now it's up to us (or something very, very similar). Or they could say anything. It doesnt matter either way. To the Classical Theist, God is perfect in every way, we cant understand him, end of story. Or not, whatever you believe.
     
  2. JerryL

    JerryL Well-Known Member

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    Meaning there's no need to put animals, or anything else, on the ark.

    In fact, the entire flood thing seems just silly in that light. God could have just "unexisted" everything he didn't like. He also could have "started fresh" by removing all of history and everyone in it while simply exempting Noah... Genesis could start with Noah instead of Adam.

    Certainly, such theatrics as an impossible ark build by impossible means holding an impossible number of animals that could not possibly get there in time to avoid an impossible flood that there's no evidence happened is far more silly than the other options I mentioned.

    I think a far more likely explanation is that people's imaginations were limitied to teh paridigm in which they operated.
     
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  3. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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    Actually there is plennty of water on our planet, if the earth surface was flat water would cover the whole globe to a depth of 2.7 km

    um no.. there is still the same amount of water/earth as there was then. Just arranged very differently.

    Thats a joke right? The layers all over the globe full of fossils is evidence of the flood.

    1 - the animals came to noah
    2 - Where did you get that number from?

    Really..? The small amount of genetic diversity is actually more of a problem for evolutionary models.

    following from - http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v17/i1/events.asp
    By comparing DNA from different humans around the world, it has been found that all humans share roughly 99.9% of their genetic material—they are almost completely identical, genetically.7
    .... Evolutionary models of origins did not predict such low human genetic diversity. Mutations should have produced much more diversity than 0.1% over millions of years. And yet this is exactly what we would expect to find if all humans were closely related and experienced a relatively recent event in which only a few survived.



    The flood is not some small geological event 4000 years ago, it destroyed the whole earth and formed the "geologic record", the layers of strata..
    There is abundant evidence that the strata are not millions of years apart in age, that they were all were laid down together.

    Cosidering the magnitude of the flood discribed in the Bible the following makes more sense to me..
    following from - http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=articles&action=view&ID=520
    Mt. Everest and the Himalayan range, along with the Alps, the Rockies, the Appalachians, the Andes, and most of the world's other mountains are composed of ocean-bottom sediments, full of marine fossils laid down by the Flood. Mt. Everest itself has clam fossils at its summit. These rock layers cover an extensive area, including much of Asia. They give every indication of resulting from cataclysmic water processes. These are the kinds of deposits we would expect to result from the worldwide, world-destroying Flood of Noah's day.
    At the end of the Flood, after thick sequences of sediments had accumulated, the Indian subcontinent evidently collided with Asia, crumpling the sediments into mountains. Today they stand as giants—folded and fractured layers of ocean-bottom sediments at high elevations. No, Noah's Flood didn't cover the Himalayas, it formed them!


    Actually i dont think the scope is lost to us at all unless perhaps if you are willfully ignorant of what the bible clearly says (2 Peter 3 talks about that). The bible makes it very clear, im not sure how it could have made it clearer, what the scope of this flood was.
    If the flood wasnt global why did birds need to be on it?
    If the flood wasnt global how did the water rise to 15 cubits (8 meters) above all mountains that existed then?
    If the flood was local then God has been repeatedly breaking his promise because there are still plenty of local floods.
    And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Genesis 6:13

    First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. 2 Peter 3:3-7
     
  4. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    God is. We need understand nothing else!
    II Timothy 3:10 You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, 11 persecutions, sufferings—what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them. 12 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13 while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. NIV

    I Corinthians 2:10but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
    The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
    16"For who has known the mind of the Lord
    that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
    NIV

    Great points!
     
  5. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    So, I guess your contention is that all fossils came from this flood? That fossils even form in that time frame? Such a myopic view of how God works is amazing. How do you rationalize the dinosaur fossils???
     
  6. robtex

    robtex Veteran Member

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    MOD POST:

    As a sidenote and off-topic post I don't think a lot of people really have read or understood the ontological argument on both sides of the fence. It would be a great topic of debate for the upcoming week by itself. I am off to work but if somebody could find a couple of links (here is one to start with ) http://www.iep.utm.edu/o/ont-arg.htm

    and assess the validity of the ontological arguement against the backdrop of a higher power I bet we could have quite a hot thread by this time next week!!

    Have fun debating and a great weekend !! (off to work for me)
     
  7. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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    My view of how God works is that he gives us his word as a lamp unto our feet, and that it is trustworthy. Christ believed the flood and often quoted from genesis, eg "in the beginning God made them male and female" or "People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all." thats good enough for me even without all the evidence supporting it. I believe that the dinosaur fossils too were created as a result of the flood, maybe if you took Gods word more seriously from beginning to end as you may an issue of national geographic you too would conclude the same. Perhaps if you, instead of basing much of your woldview on the opionions of those who regard the bible as myth, openly evaluated that which your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ present as evidence supporting the bible as real history you could see where im coming from. Do you believe that the Christian scientists with full qualifications etc who take the Bibles history as true are foolish?
    I suppose you automatically presume groups like www.answersingenesis.com or www.icr.org are foolish and deluded for believing the bibles account of history and its implications. Jesus said that those who would follow him would be ridiculed persecuted etc and here you are ridiculing what the bible clearly teaches.
     
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  8. JerryL

    JerryL Well-Known Member

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    Actually, I've determined that both sites are either very ignorant or eggregious liars. Take your pick.

    As to someone saying "people who believe foolish, contrary, and unpopular things will occasionally be called fools"... well, if you think that's prophetic, wait till you see my prophecy: People will disagree with me.
     
  9. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    I differ in this how???
    And it's also good enough for me.
    Show me THAT in the Bible and I will agree.
    Actually, I obviously take God's word FAR MORE SERIOUSLY than you do. I refuse to ADD OR SUBTRACT from it, the very thing you are doing here. Paul told us that anyone who added or subtracted from the Gospel would be "anathema" (condemned to hell) and I refuse to do that! I wonder why you do it so easily? Perhaps you need to study it some more.
    Such accusations, and from someone who adds to what the Bible teaches. tch, tch!
    I don't automatically assume anything (as you seem to have done right here). I have seen the truth, and it ain't YOU.
    My friend, when you ADD or SUBTRACT from the scriptures you are NOT following Jesus or God: you are falling prey to the Devil's errand to sidetrack you from what is REALLY important, like LOVE. The Gospel has NEVER been about debunking evolution; it has ALWAYS been about loving God and loving everyone else. On these two hang EVERYTHING.
     
  10. Fatmop

    Fatmop Active Member

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    Steve, Steve, Steve...
    http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH550.html

    I've posted all those TO links before. They are ACTUAL SCIENTISTS linking to ACTUAL GEOLOGICAL STUDIES that pretty much say NO, YOU'RE DEAD WRONG AND QUIT MISREPRESENTING OUR WORK.

    http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH102_2_1.html

    That's a good thing for you, then, 'cause there ain't any.
     
  11. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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    You seem to find Gods word as untrustworthy in regards to its history, you deny some of its clear teachings and implications.


    So you do believe that ""But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.'" - Mark 10:6 I thought you believed in evolution where male and female came way after the beginning of creation.
    Also you seemed to imply earlier that the flood was not global, yet the flood is clearly taught as global in the Bible.


    Its real simple, God made the land animals on day 6, about 6000 years ago. Therefore the layers cant be the result of millions of years and also there is much evidence supporting that they were instead layed down together and arnt vast ages apart.


    You "refuse to ADD OR SUBTRACT from it" - your kidding right? You seem to have no problem at all adding millions of years of death/suffering etc befor sin, somthing clearly not taught in the bible. You have no problem adding that the flood wasnt global, you have no problem claiming that God used survival of the fitest/death etc to create when instead he created all in 6 days. I believe the bible for what it says, you instead distort it and add serious implications regarding Gods character and the results of our rebellion.


    I agree, maybe your should get back to the bible regarding your worldview and Gods creation.

    ok but it is also about truth and salvation from our sin which started back in Genesis with adam and eve. Evolution does try to debunk the Bible, the 2 are not compatible and to try and make them compatible just leaves you with a God who didnt make things the way his word clearly teaches and instead used death and desease, 2 things which are really the result of our rebellion. Death is described as the last enemy, Christ said ""But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.'" - Mark 10:6
    You decide who is really adding or subtracting from the bible.
    If you cant trust the start of the bible how can you trust the Gospels?
     
  12. standing_on_one_foot

    standing_on_one_foot Well-Known Member

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    Just curious here, what evidence?
     
  13. Buttons*

    Buttons* Glass half Panda'd

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    One lady i knew told me that the whole evolution thing was a conspiracy made my scientists...

    that's really random... and not necessary, but i felt like adding it....
     
  14. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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    ah yes, your beloved talkorigins...
    Do you presume ive never read articles from that site?
    There are ACTUAL SCIENTISTS who believe in the history of the bible also, eg global flood etc.
    I know they are the minority but..?
    They too have "ACTUAL GEOLOGICAL STUDIES that pretty much say NO, YOU'RE DEAD WRONG"
     
  15. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    It's my humble opinion that many of these "clear teachings" you refer to have no basis in scripture. That "evolution" is false for example. I think you would have to refer to 1st Opinions to find any Biblical reference for it.
    I don't believe that Genesis tells us HOW God made man (or woman). If you baked a cake, you would go to the store, buy the ingredients, mix them up, put them in the oven, time them carefully, and walla: you have "created" a cake. That you used many steps does not stop you from having CREATED that cake. Could you have used a magic wand? Possibly, but either way, the cake was created. Evolution is nothing more than a tool: a tool that God created and that you have NO RIGHT to tell him that he can't use it! Really. Don't sweat the small stuff, and evolution is indeed "small stuff" in the face of eternity.
    Is it?

    II Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. NIV

    God created time: he is certainly not bound by it! Much of what he inspired man to write was to tell WHO was responsible: not as a scientific tome. No one will go to hell because they believed in "demon evolution". Nope, they will choose to go by their own indifference. Unfortunately, Satan has convinced you to draw a line in the sand that God never intended. You have put up a STUMBLING BLOCK that was never intended to be constructed. Satan is happy about this, but I don't think God is! Go figure!
    Again, please show me a verse that tells us that evolution is anathema! Just one!
    Again, just show me ONE passage that decries evolution. Just one! People who hate God may use evolution to decry God, but evolution never states just WHO started the whole thing. Let me share two passages from Timothy:

    I Timothy 1:3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer 4 nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work—which is by faith. 5 The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk. 7 They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm. NIV

    I Timothy 6:3 If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4 he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5 and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.


    6 But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8 But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9 People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. 11 But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13 In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you 14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen. NIV

    Avoid the controversies of science, my friend. They are the Devil's trap to distract you from persuing righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. The gospel is about LOVE not the debunking of any scientific theory.
     
  16. Fatmop

    Fatmop Active Member

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    Yeah, I do. If you have actually read them, and understood them, then I'm even more impressed; how could your mind possibly remain closed to the fact that your 'scientists' have been throughly debunked and refuted?

    You mean like ... economists, or what? Show me a geologist who believes in evidence for a global flood and I'll show you an unhinged loon.

    As for my "beloved" Talk Origins, don't you think we all sit back and mutter just the same things to ourselves about your AIG? Ask yourself which is more credible: science, working from evidence to conclusion, or religion, working from conclusion to evidence?
     
  17. MdmSzdWhtGuy

    MdmSzdWhtGuy Well-Known Member

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    Yes, ignore science. Very sound advice. Just beleive what we tell you in church, whether there is any evidence to support it or not. That attitude will end us back in the middle ages.


    B.
     
  18. MdmSzdWhtGuy

    MdmSzdWhtGuy Well-Known Member

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    Uh, OK, but there remains the little problem that the world is in fact far from flat. But let us not have that little problem affect us.

    And please point me to one single geologist with an actual PhD. from a real university who maintains that there is evidence for a flood which has covered all the landmass on earth. It didn't happen, it couldn't have happened, and there is absolutely no evidence for a flood which covered the entire planet.

    B.
     
  19. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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    If you honestly believe that evolution dosnt interfer with the creation as described in Genesis you have your head in the sand.
    Evolution is false acording to the bible because the bible clearly says God created in 6 days and gives the order of creation. Both the time and order evolution disagress with.


    Genesis does tell us how he made man and woman! eg adams rib.
    Evolution may well be a tool that God could have used but it wouldnt make sense that he would use somthing that if we are to believe it dosnt really need him, not to mention all the death and suffering which God must have called "very good".
    Whats more though is that i have no right to tell him that he did use death and desease to create, instead i will believe what his says about the order and time of his creation.
    You may regard it as small stuff but i dont, Christ believed Genesis - and in light of eternity id like to be able to say i was open to the bibles clear teachings this side of Christs return.


    2 Peter 3:8 simply tells us that God is outside of time, it has nothing to do with Creation and the time God told us he made things, i really think people are getting desperate when they try and use this. Did evolution take 6000 years? is that your case? The days in Genesis are qualified with a number and "morning" and "evening" - God made it preety clear what he was trying to tell us, not only that but our week is based on it, eg the sabath day because he rested on the 7th day - in the ten commandments


    Evoltion is not compatible with the bible! its not hard to see, i gave reasons based on scripture above, you want more?


    Already done it - ""But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.'" - Mark 10:6
    You want more, theres plenty. How bout the first few chapters of Genesis?


    Regarding I Timothy 1:3 maybe you should read it all -
    command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work—which is by faith. The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. ​
    You believe God used death and disease to create his "very good" creation, somthing the bible clearly teaches against.

    Also the Gospel is about
    We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 2 Corinthians 10:5

    Consider what luther said.
    “When Moses writes that God created heaven and earth and whatever is in them in six days, then let this period continue to have been six days, and do not venture to devise any comment according to which six days were one day. But, if you cannot understand how this could have been done in six days, then grant the Holy Spirit the honor of being more learned than you are.”
     
  20. Fatmop

    Fatmop Active Member

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    Boy, listen to yourself... have you ever asked WHY evolution disagrees with this? Do you have some idea about a giant science conspiracy to turn everyone into atheists, or what?

    Luther said a lot of things. Luther also is not some kind of deity, and is prone to mistakes.
     
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