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The argument against Hell

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Averroes, Oct 22, 2011.

  1. roli

    roli Born Again,Spirit Filled

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    [.Averroes;2652339].


    Hell is actually referred to in the old testament aswell as the new and therefore in Judaism thought......the hebrew word is sheol,meaning underworld,hell ,pit grave,and although there is no direct link to punishment in the old testament as Jesus speaks of , it is the abode of the dead, nonetheless, or another way to describe it is, the separated...this is my point.
    Hell according to scripture thought is always suggestive of the notion that hell is not only an abode or place of the physical body after cessation of life, but a departure and separation of the soul from Gods presence and all that embodies his presence, which is suggestive throughout scripture as an existence unlike we know it in this physical realm, but it entails an eternal life,hope, peace, joy, comfort, possessing knowledge and awarness of your sorroundings, void of pain, hurt and misery,having roles and or positions in that life and many other pleasures.

    .



    Freewill is an integral part of our human existence in every area of life, it is something we like to maintain we have...it is one of our strongest factors that quite possibly keep us sane, but freewill, often a misnomer and usually umbeknown to many, must be properly exercised only within the confines of universal laws that are self existent. If we are to be literally honest.....freewill is in its self, nonexistent. Although we can convince ourselves we have freewill to choose to do what we want, when we want, how we want, such as to walk across the street, drive the car, eat in a restaurant, go to work, go swimming, regardless of what we expose ourselves to....... it is however, regulated and always contingent upon, self existing governing laws that are constant and active and that we must conduct our lives in accordance with.
    So in essence, are we really deluded into thinking we are freewill agents in this universe?......not in the absolute way as we would like to think or from the standpoint many skeptics tend to argue from in Christian debates.
    Why does that arguement always rear its ugly head when debating about God, hell, heaven,creation etc.



    If someone chooses to live outside the confines of universal laws and jump off a bridge,or out of a plane without a parchute, speed down a highway at twice the speed of light or even break a civil law..would you claim the inevitable outcome of those laws being violated in each case would be unjust. Meaning, if the car hit a tree that Johnny was driiving and he ejected into a stationary tree, is that unjust ...maybe sad, but within laws, there has to exist justice and or injustice. If I jumped from the plane without a parachute, much the same idea...justice!!!!!!!! regardless, if I defy one law with another, the laws still exists and justice must be served if there is a violation of one or the other. Justice is always waiting to be served.....when and where is all that is in question.
    Our bodies work the same way....under universal and physiological laws...outside these, we die..is this unjust. I rob a bank and am sent to jail being your only kid would that be unjust.
    I live near Niagra falls..many people jump or fall in by accident...the laws that are self existing demonstrated in sweeping people away..are they unjust...no, they are accepted and understood and most importantly, adhered to with the utmost respect

    In accordance to the laws that are institued , an injustice is someone evading those laws or escaping them by defying them ..never actually eradicating them...therefore, in this regard, there is no actual freewill, if you really want to be literal.
    I think maybe you don't understand that hell was not created for people, as scripture explains....but will be used to house those who violate the spiritual laws of God...that is another thread...!!!!!
    So as we have a choice to adhere to laws in this universe and enjoy a long healthy existence.....so it is with God and abiding by his laws stipulated in is word and carried out with the hekp of his spirit



    .
    Sin is separation from God....Jesus according to scripture says he is the means to justify the ungodly from the consequences of their sinful violation of his laws, which are immutable.



    Righteousness in christian scripture is imputed to the sinner by Christ and his sacrifice,as a free gift and only when recieved by the guilty is it actually applied




    I will respond to this later..its been awhile since I have been on ...hoping this will send correctly.

    thanks roli
     
    #21 roli, Oct 22, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2011
  2. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    No. Sheol is a hebrew word, hades is a greek word. The hebrew scriptures were written long before the Jews were speaking greek. Throughout the oldest hebrew scriptures, the word they used for the grave was sheol'

    it wasnt until the 3rd century bce when they first translated the hebrew scriptures into greek that they used the greek word hades as the translation for Sheol. Hades meant the same thing as Sheol did...the grave.
     
  3. waitasec

    waitasec Veteran Member

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    my argument against hell is that it is so conveniently set up for someone other that "me"
     
  4. Me Myself

    Me Myself Back to my username

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    Sorry, I think you mispelled something, let me correct it.


     
  5. Averroes

    Averroes Active Member

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    How is hell comparable to universal laws?

    How are finite sins punishable with infinite torment?
     
  6. Landerage

    Landerage Araknor

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    For me as a muslim, Hell is considered a place for purification from sins, aswell as a place for endless suffery to those who committed the greatest sins. As God says, there are different degrees in he'll same goes for heaven. In my personal opinion, suffery in he'll might vary from a pinch of a needle that would provoke little pain, to a endless fire exposure. God points out in the Qur'an that some people who committed great sins, will suffer forever and the suffery will never decrease in pain, but for other people it might be decreased and lowered if minor sins were committed. And i remember reading in a book, about people getting purified from their sins and when that is done, sent back to heaven. But those had faith in God however deliberately chose to commit great sins.
    As for the endless punishments, I think it would address people who made a whole humanity suffer because of them or caused the deviation of a large number of humans from the path of God. As God says, everything is counted, and each have the punishment that suits his sins.
    Before asking God to stop us from committing a sin, why we don't use our own consciousness to realize that is a sin and try as much as possible to avoid it ? God asks us to do the best we can in life, and each human's capacity is different from the other so every human is judged differentely.
    You are not forced to do good, every human can choose to do evil and eventually go to hell. But a human being is an intelligent, logical creature, why would a human cut his own arm if he's not crazy?
     
  7. tariqkhwaja

    tariqkhwaja Jihad Against Terrorism

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    Hell is not eternal according to Islam. The following show this:

     
  8. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Averroes, is there any particular reason why you so carefully avoid addressing this?
    Plodding along with your eyes wide shut isn't particularly useful.
     
  9. Averroes

    Averroes Active Member

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    I was actually going to address that.

    My evidence unfortunately is ancedotal, and from my memories in college from philosophy of religion class where we disscused Sheol and the Greco-Roman belief of Hades. Now in my understanding Hades is a dwelling place for the good and bad alike to be forever if memory serves me right.
     
  10. Antiochian

    Antiochian Rationalist

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    I think the idea that a loving God would allow someone to go to a hell is terrible. On the other hand, I have a hard time disbelieving it when I read of the deeds of a serial killer or child abuser. It's one of the teachings of my UU church that I struggle with. Let's put it this way: I don't believe in a petty God who throws Grandma into the lake of fire because she was a shaman who failed to embrace the "truth" of evangelcal Christianity (assuming God's evangelical). But then there's the evil of someone like Jeffrey Dahmer, the guy who beats the snot out of his wife and kids and destroys their lives, the politician who gets rich while his/her constituents starve, and doesn't care. I don't know what happens after death, but I'd like to think there is justice if we survive death at all.
     
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  11. Averroes

    Averroes Active Member

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    Indeed.
     
  12. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Excellent.

    Clearly not so excellent.


    That's nice.

    Now, how do you account for Genesis 37:35? This might be a good time to go back to the drawing board so to speak. Yes?
     
  13. Landerage

    Landerage Araknor

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    And what does 64:10 of the Qur'an say ?
     
  14. Averroes

    Averroes Active Member

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    I read the verse. What do you want to discuss? The usage of the word "grave?"
     
  15. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Guess what it is in Hebrew.
    Guess whether or not it was "adopted from the Roman Hades".
    Guess why I think that your claim that "Hebrew scriptures also adopted idea of Sheol from the Romans Hades" has zero credibility.
    And guess why I think making such claims without doing even the most basic investigation is irresponsible.​
     
  16. Averroes

    Averroes Active Member

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    Guess why I still think even the idea of Sheol and Greco-Roman idea on hell is similar.

    Guess why when I do a basic google search of Hades, Sheol pops up

    Guess what I found when I actually did a google search?

    Sheol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  17. tariqkhwaja

    tariqkhwaja Jihad Against Terrorism

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    Well that verse further supports that hell is not eternal. (note that verse numbers are different because Bismillah is included in the counting).

    [64:10] The day when He shall gather you, on the Day of Gathering, that will be the day of mutual loss and gain. And whoso believes in Allah and does good deeds — He will remove from them the evil consequences of their deeds and He will make them enter Gardens through which streams flow, to abide therein for ever. That is the supreme triumph.
    [64:11] But as to those who disbelieve and reject Our Signs, these shall be the inmates of the Fire, wherein they shall abide; and an evil destination it is!

    The difference is
    for heaven it is: Khalideena Fiha Abada (to abide therein for ever) while
    for hell it is: Khalideena Fiha (to abide therein) without "Abada" (forever)

    So thanks for pointing that out.
     
  18. tariqkhwaja

    tariqkhwaja Jihad Against Terrorism

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    [72:24], [4,170], [33:66], mention "Abada" in relation to hell. However, heaven is not mentioned next to those verses (as comparison) while in 64:10-11 a comparison of heaven and hell is shown with "Abada" only referring to heaven.

    To explain "Abada" in relation to hell it may mean a "long time" as per Lane
    Alif

    Alif-Ba-Dal = he remained/stayed, abode, dwelt constantly/permanently, to render perpetual, time (in an absolute sense), long time, endless/eternal/forever, unlimited/indivisible, lasting/everlasting, unsocial/unfamiliar, never (when used in negative construction).

    In view of the other Quranic verses the only way to resolve both verses is to accept that "Abada" in the case of hell means for a long time but heaven is a gift that will not be cut off.
     
  19. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    when the Jews translated their hebrew scriptures into the Greek Septuagint version in the 3rd century bce, they translate the Hebrew word she&#700;ohl&#8242; as “Hades”

    so back then, the jews who knew the greek language chose hades as the word which described the 'grave'. In some way, the grave is the 'abode of the dead' because that is where we put the dead. But unlike the greek belief in the afterlife, the hebrew belief was that the dead returned to the dust and that is where they stayed in an unconscious state.
     
  20. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    you shouldn't put too much stock in wikipedia... it is riddled with innacuracy.

    ie the wicki article states:
    Sheol ([​IMG] /&#712;&#643;i&#720;o&#650;l/ shee-ohl or /&#712;&#643;i&#720;&#601;l/ shee-&#601;l; Hebrew [FONT=&quot]&#1513;&#1456;&#1473;&#1488;&#1493;&#1465;&#1500;[/FONT] Š&#702;ôl) is the "grave", "pit", or "abyss" in Hebrew.[1][2] She'ol[3] is the earliest conception of the afterlife in the Jewish scriptures. It is a place of darkness to which all dead go, regardless of the moral choices made in life, and where they are "removed from the light of God" (see the Book of Job). In the Tanakh sheol is the common destination of both the righteous and the unrighteous flesh, as recounted in Ecclesiastes and Job.

    Sheol is called the 'grave' and 'pit', why? Because it is literally the hole in the dirt where a person is buried. That is what it is. And like its greek counterpart, Hades, it is 'concealed place'

    But what the hebrew scriptures say about the state of death has nothing to do with sheol. Sheol is a tomb, a burial place, a hole in the ground... the dead who go there are said to be 'unconscious'
    Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all

    so in the mind of the hebrew writers, sheol was not a place for an 'afterlife'... it was a place where there was NO LIFE at all.
     
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