The Apostle Paul - The great apostasy

[Dennis Kean]

There are many disguised things in the bible. Only by being taught by the real teachers who have Jesus leading them, one finds truth---Gods own angels didn't even know the disguised truths(Dan 12:4--1Peter 1:12
Paul was correct.

In everyone a battle occurs between the flesh and the spirit. Jesus' point was correct--If one chooses to give in to the flesh--they only fool themselves thinking they serve the spirit. A mortal can throw the lie around--you are saved or born again--he does not know. Its a farce to get the tithe.

God knew his will would not fail--that is what God showed, he knew of the 144,000-little flock--and the great multitude--not by name or looks or anything--he knew it was his will and his will, will not fail.


Paul was a member of the 144,000--the anointed--the bride of Christ--certain teachings in the NT were only to them. It is they who will not be judged by works because they will not be on earth when Jesus comes to judge works.

But Paul served sin with the flesh, kjw47. So do all the sinners. And you continue to assert that Election is how man is saved. So, why is God prejudiced against the others? If God is willing to save some sinners, why not save ALL sinners?

So, you are not here to dialogue with others who disagree with you. You are here to tell those who do not agree with you that they are not chosen to be saved. Right? Yet, you recognize that you do not even know if you will be saved or not, as per your comment. So, how can you possibly know if I will be saved?

Now concerning the battle between the flesh and the spirit, it is a totally bogus concept that the spirit and the flesh are compatible to make war with one another. The spirit and the heart are one thing to begin with. The Savior says that sins come out of the heart, not out of the flesh.

Mat_15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

The flesh is not endowed with a separate spirit. There is only one decision maker in each man. The spirit chooses to be pleased this or that way. So, the war in the mind is among the things the mind likes. Paul tries to excuse his sins by blaming the flesh. The Savior does not accept that excuse. He says that sin comes out of the spirit, which is the heart or as Paul puts it, "the mind". Can you grasp that?

 

[Dennis Kean]

Hi Jonathan, While you have no problem with the twelve who followed Jesus for three and a half years being Apostles, You try to discredit Paul who received his calling just as the "chosen", " who were called out of Egypt."----
How many "witnesses" did GOD say established the matter?? Two are more.
Paul was more interested in teaching and preaching the Truth of the Gospel than claiming the Apostleship-----as unworthy of the title because of his early ignorance and persecutions.

It was Paul who went to Jerusalem to meet with the Leaders of the "Church/Believers". He wasn't called to be Questioned by them, but he wanted to know if those persons who dogged him were correct in their accusations---That council determined Paul to be correct in his teachings and preachings and those accusers to be false and NOT SENT BY THE "CHURCH".

Read Gal.2 .
Those who were given the Oracles of GOD had not understood their meanings and developed their own "traditions and erroneous commandments".

But the Savior dismissed Paul, saying that he is not an Apostle and the Savior was the one authority who could do that. Paul claimed to be an Apostle and Paul, it is, who said that foods offered to idols are fine to eat and do no harm. Right? Remember...? Well, let me remind you of both facts... from the Bible:

Rom_1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

1Co 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
1Co 8:7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
1Co 8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

The Savior, however, is not so aligned with Paul on that topic. If the Savior had elected Paul to be a Disciple, we would expect that in the prophecy of Revelation chapter 2 he would speak to the church of Ephesus concerning their casting Paul out and influencing the other churches to ban him. But, instead, the Savior says something entirely different.

Rev 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

And this issue is not just a passing issue with the Savior. He says the same thing to another church of Asia -- Thyatira

Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

To start with... who, other than Paul and few of his cohorts, claimed to be Apostles? The names on the 12 gates of Jerusalem are twelve and the Apostles' names are promised to be written in each. Where will Paul's name be written. My suspicion is that his will not be written in any gates of the New Jerusalem.

Take some time to read my other posts on this thread to get more details about Paul and how he clashes with the doctrines of the Savior. Paul was cast out and for the past 50 years the Dead Sea Scrolls contained a document to show that Paul was excommunicated from the early churches. That document was hidden due to the fear that it will impact Christianity and disappoint many. Well, it is time to wake up and smell the roses, friends. Paul taught ideas which were directly opposed to the teachings of the Savior. And there are so many that you can pick his writings and I will show you where Paul was deluding the people. Feel free to test me.

 

[oldbadger]

Btw, Jesus made a prophecy about Paul in John 5:43. Be sure to also read the preceding verses!!

But G-John was written circa 90-110CE about 40-50 years after Paul's death. I don't trust much about John's tangled timeline, grossly exaggerated claims, etc.

 

[Dennis Kean]

There are many disguised things in the bible. Only by being taught by the real teachers who have Jesus leading them, one finds truth---Gods own angels didn't even know the disguised truths(Dan 12:4--1Peter 1:12
Paul was correct.

In everyone a battle occurs between the flesh and the spirit. Jesus' point was correct--If one chooses to give in to the flesh--they only fool themselves thinking they serve the spirit. A mortal can throw the lie around--you are saved or born again--he does not know. Its a farce to get the tithe.

God knew his will would not fail--that is what God showed, he knew of the 144,000-little flock--and the great multitude--not by name or looks or anything--he knew it was his will and his will, will not fail.


Paul was a member of the 144,000--the anointed--the bride of Christ--certain teachings in the NT were only to them. It is they who will not be judged by works because they will not be on earth when Jesus comes to judge works.

My dear friend, what makes you privy to make this preemptive judgement and decide that Paul is one of the 144,000??? To be one one has to die for the cause. When His life was in jeopardy, he did not demonstrate the courage and conviction of Stephen, who looked up to heaven. 144,000... I would not bet on that.

God gave the 12 Apostles the mission of reaching out to the Gentiles. Peter was given a vision while resting on the rooftop. The message was clear that after Israel was cast out, the Gentiles were grafted in. A decade or more later, Paul comes barging in with a different mission. He tells the Apostles that they should go back to preach to the Jews and leave the Gentiles to him. So, if you cannot recognize this scheme, I may not be able to help you grasp much about Paul. Suffice it to say that God does not change His plans like that. God would have told the Apostles this Himself. In time, however, the churches of Asia figured it out on their own. The Apostles learned their lesson and many decades later The Savior gave John the Revelation to confirm that Paul, the man who claimed to be an Apostle was indeed a liar as it was decided by the Ephesus council.

By the way, Paul disagreed with the Apostles on many things. Here is something off the top...

Jas_2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Paul counters:

Rom_4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Heb_11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Yet, in the beginning, when Paul was not sure how much weight he had with the people, Paul spoke differently. Works had weight and importance then, so he would not arouse suspicions, so early:

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Later, that was countermanded with:

2Ti_1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

144,000... I would not bet on that.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I think Paul realized making marytrs of Christians wasn't working, so he continued his "holy" destruction of the movement by becoming a sacrificial Trojan Horse, destroying it from within.

 

[Dennis Kean]

I think Paul realized making marytrs of Christians wasn't working, so he continued his "holy" destruction of the movement by becoming a sacrificial Trojan Horse, destroying it from within.

Right on, Kelly. There are so many clues to support that, when we carefully study his words. He puts down women, he dislocates the Savior's doctrines. He sent the Apostles back to proselytize back to the Jew a decade after the Savior cast them out, saying "...your house is left unto you desolate"... as well as:

Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

So, what would be the point for the Apostles to go back to preach to the Jews? This is not to disparage the Jewish people at large, mind you. But in prophecy Israel of that day was given 70 prophetic weeks to recognize and honor their Messiah.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Messiah came and they did not anoint Him. So, the Gospel went to the Gentiles.

 

[kjw47]

But Paul served sin with the flesh, kjw47. So do all the sinners. And you continue to assert that Election is how man is saved. So, why is God prejudiced against the others? If God is willing to save some sinners, why not save ALL sinners?

So, you are not here to dialogue with others who disagree with you. You are here to tell those who do not agree with you that they are not chosen to be saved. Right? Yet, you recognize that you do not even know if you will be saved or not, as per your comment. So, how can you possibly know if I will be saved?

Now concerning the battle between the flesh and the spirit, it is a totally bogus concept that the spirit and the flesh are compatible to make war with one another. The spirit and the heart are one thing to begin with. The Savior says that sins come out of the heart, not out of the flesh.

Mat_15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

The flesh is not endowed with a separate spirit. There is only one decision maker in each man. The spirit chooses to be pleased this or that way. So, the war in the mind is among the things the mind likes. Paul tries to excuse his sins by blaming the flesh. The Savior does not accept that excuse. He says that sin comes out of the spirit, which is the heart or as Paul puts it, "the mind". Can you grasp that?

The heart is treacherous and desperate, who can know it? Jer 17:9)

The mind is ruled by the hearts desire. A heart must be trained. If wicked thoughts enter---put a stop as fast as possible--if one dwells on them, most likely will give in to them.
The only way to win-- Disown oneself to follow Jesus( Matt 16:24)-- few can.
You are correct--no excuses will be accepted.

 

[Desert Snake]

But G-John was written circa 90-110CE about 40-50 years after Paul's death. I don't trust much about John's tangled timeline, grossly exaggerated claims, etc.

John 1:1

John 10:30


Wouldn't expect you to find any of the bible, credible, really.

 

[kjw47]

My dear friend, what makes you privy to make this preemptive judgement and decide that Paul is one of the 144,000??? To be one one has to die for the cause. When His life was in jeopardy, he did not demonstrate the courage and conviction of Stephen, who looked up to heaven. 144,000... I would not bet on that.

God gave the 12 Apostles the mission of reaching out to the Gentiles. Peter was given a vision while resting on the rooftop. The message was clear that after Israel was cast out, the Gentiles were grafted in. A decade or more later, Paul comes barging in with a different mission. He tells the Apostles that they should go back to preach to the Jews and leave the Gentiles to him. So, if you cannot recognize this scheme, I may not be able to help you grasp much about Paul. Suffice it to say that God does not change His plans like that. God would have told the Apostles this Himself. In time, however, the churches of Asia figured it out on their own. The Apostles learned their lesson and many decades later The Savior gave John the Revelation to confirm that Paul, the man who claimed to be an Apostle was indeed a liar as it was decided by the Ephesus council.

By the way, Paul disagreed with the Apostles on many things. Here is something off the top...

Jas_2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Paul counters:

Rom_4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Heb_11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Yet, in the beginning, when Paul was not sure how much weight he had with the people, Paul spoke differently. Works had weight and importance then, so he would not arouse suspicions, so early:

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Later, that was countermanded with:

2Ti_1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

144,000... I would not bet on that.

Paul went through hell promoting the good news of Gods kingdom. He faced death many x, starved, imprisioned,etc. Your misunderstanding of what is actually said makes it seem Paul contradicts, but he doesn't. Certain nt passages are only to the anointed. They will not be on earth when Jesus comes to judge all by their works. They will be judging beside him on thrones. They will judge the fallen angels as well.

 

[omega2xx]

I have a hypothesis. Jesus said that after him would come the great apostasy.
I believe that Paul may have been it. Paul was a persecutor of Christians who apparently had a miraculous change of heart on the Road to Damascus.

If there was one way to do a lot of damage, this would be it. Pretend to be converted, preach your own message as being from the Lord and see where that goes.

It is Paul's version of Christianity most Christians practice today. He wrote 14 books of the NT and set most of the rules of modern day Christianity and even introduced teachings in direct opposition or without direction from Jesus. 1 Corinthians 7:12

Jesus associated with tax collectors and sinners. It was Paul who said that wrongdoers should be removed from amongst the congregations.
It was Paul who said women should be silent. The list goes on.

So, I believe it was perhaps Paul who did more damage to the teachings of Christ then anyone else.

Jesus never mentioned apostasy'

Paul wrote what God inspired him to write.

Paul did not damage Christianity.

 

[Desert Snake]

Paul went through hell promoting the good news of Gods kingdom. He faced death many x, starved, imprisioned,etc. Your misunderstanding of what is actually said makes it seem Paul contradicts, but he doesn't. Certain nt passages are only to the anointed. They will not be on earth when Jesus comes to judge all by their works. They will be judging beside him on thrones. They will judge the fallen angels as well.

We do agree in a literal deity. However God is on a throne, not formless. The apostles weren't talking about a formless god on a throne. The Bible is not a riddle, the followers of Jesus do not talk in riddles.

 

[kjw47]

We do agree in a literal deity. However God is on a throne, not formless. The apostles weren't wingnuts who talked about a formless god on a throne. The Bible is not a riddle, the followers of Jesus do not talk in riddles.

Then why didn't Gods own angels know bible truth? 1Peter 1:12--Why is there a lot of symbolism?
This is why-- certain Truth' were hidden( Dan 12:4) until these last days--it kept satan and his angels in spiritual darkness--mortals to. But now truth is abundant--the only way that got accomplished was by Jesus appointing( Matt 24:45) his faithful and discreet slave( lead teachers) over all of his belongings and making correction to the errors taught through the years, here in these last days.
If you don't think things are riddles--please tell us when these two monsters will appear( Rev 13)

 

[Desert Snake]

OUR Bible, has form deity. The belief that deity has no form, IS NOT part of our religion, and our texts state this throughout, ie form deity.

 

[Desert Snake]

Then why didn't Gods own angels know bible truth? 1Peter 1:12--Why is there a lot of symbolism?
This is why-- certain Truth' were hidden( Dan 12:4) until these last days--it kept satan and his angels in spiritual darkness--mortals to. But now truth is abundant--the only way that got accomplished was by Jesus appointing( Matt 24:45) his faithful and discreet slave( lead teachers) over all of his belongings and making correction to the errors taught through the years, here in these last days.
If you don't think things are riddles--please tell us when these two monsters will appear( Rev 13)

The texts differ, the nature of God is never spoken of in a riddle or esoteric manner. The actual person of God, is not obfuscated in that manner. This only differs from Judaism, in that they generally do not use the texts that we use, to denote God and His form. This is why we use different texts.

The beasts of Revelation may be meant in a symbolic manner, apples and oranges.

People in anti-christ persuasion always talk in riddles. You will never "win"a riddle argument.
We do not "speak in riddles"; we sometimes use symbology.

Different things for different subjects.

 

[omega2xx]

We do agree in a literal deity. However God is on a throne, not formless. The apostles weren't talking about a formless god on a throne. The Bible is not a riddle, the followers of Jesus do not talk in riddles.

Good to have an OT Christian in the forum, Not may left unfortunately.

Spiritual concepts are an unsolverable riddle for the natural man---I Cor 2:14.

 

[oldbadger]

John 1:1

John 10:30


Wouldn't expect you to find any of the bible, credible, really.

Hi.....
But I do.....
I find most of the history in the OT to be credible.
And almost all of G-Mark (apart from last verses), and many many 'pericopes' found in Matthew, Luke and even John.

Oh yes...... there was a Yeshua BarYosef alright, and the true story of his mission. It just got changed somewhat by the time that G-John was written.

A really good read is 'The changing faces of Jesus' by the translator Geza Vermes.

 

[Desert Snake]

Hi.....
But I do.....
I find most of the history in the OT to be credible.
And almost all of G-Mark (apart from last verses), and many many 'pericopes' found in Matthew, Luke and even John.

Oh yes...... there was a Yeshua BarYosef alright, and the true story of his mission. It just got changed somewhat by the time that G-John was written.

A really good read is 'The changing faces of Jesus' by the translator Geza Vermes.

Yeshua, implying that He didn't have a different name? How do you know His name as Yeshua?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

This is why-- certain Truth' were hidden( Dan 12:4) until these last days

You tell your audience that all the correct answers will appear at the end of the story because you don't expect them to live that long and find out you're a false prophet.

 

[wizanda]

Paul who did more damage to the teachings of Christ then anyone else.

Not sure Paul did the most Damage; the Gospel of John being made up heavily influences many people's thinking about who Yeshua really is.

Though here is our list of Paul Vs Yeshua, and there are loads more points as well.

 

[wizanda]

You tell your audience that all the correct answers will appear at the end of the story because you don't expect them to live that long and find out you're a false prophet.

Within this Paul wrote before the 2nd Temple destruction, and Diaspora; thus his ideas about Israel being under Grace due to the death of Christ is proven false.

It is clear they were cut off at the point of the Roman siege (70AD); thus it shows Paul was fundamentally flawed in his whole ideology about being grafted onto a divorced wife.