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The Alleged Troubles With Atheism

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
According to some religious apologists I'm acquainted with, atheism is a problematical way of looking at reality and living one's life. Here is a list of some of the criticisms of atheism and atheists I've heard:
Most of these are addressed by simply pointing out that atheism is merely a rejection of the existence of gods. It is not a philosophy or ideology that tries to explain or promote anything.

Atheism offers no hope.
Hope of what?
And what use is false hope?

Atheism cannot explain existence.
Doesn't try to.
But rejecting the idea that god explains existence means that we can look for the actual explanation.

The amazing complexity of living things cannot be explained by atheism.
Doesn't try to.
However, the theory of evolution does explain it.

Atheists are responsible for close to 100 million deaths during the twentieth century alone.
The deaths you are no doubt referring to were caused by irrational ideologies that show striking similarities to religion.

Hitler was an atheist, and his atheism led him to commit his "final solution" resulting in the deaths of six million Jews.
Very wrong. It is a stretch to call him an atheist. He was a sceptical Catholic at best. Mein Kampf makes several references to "God" and "The Creator". Every German soldier had "God With Us" on their belt buckle.
His position of Jews was based on ideological anti-semitism, not on atheism.

If one is an atheist, then there is no objective basis for that person's morality.
No one has any "objective basis" for morality. All morality is subjective.

Atheism is illogical because it is impossible to know that God doesn't exist.
It is a lack of belief, not a positive claim.
However, we can prove that some gods do not exist, on the basis of what they are supposed to have said and done.

Atheism is a ruse because there are no true atheists: Supposed atheists do believe in God but don't recognize God's authority because they would rather sin.
Those people are not atheists. They are rebellious religionists.
Also a silly argument because people clearly do genuinely lack belief.

Atheists have created ideas like evolution and the multiverse to avoid the fact that God created the cosmos and life.
Ironically, people created gods because they hadn't yet come up with better explanations.
Also another silly argument because if there is a working explanation for something, then it is reasonable to accept it over assertions with no supporting evidence.

Atheism is a mental illness
Ironically, it is religious belief that could be called a "mental illness" as it is a delusion. A firm belief in something that is not real.

brought on by childhood trauma regarding one's father which leads a person to reject her Heavenly Father.
Oh dear. o_O

Is there any truth to these criticisms?
These are your own ideas, aren't they? Or are you just "asking for a friend"? :tearsofjoy:
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
While it is impossible to know, there is an arguable case that Marxism was responsible for more deaths in a century than died in all religious wars in history.
It was the irrational ideological decisions of a god-like figurehead that lead to most of the deaths, not a general lack of belief in gods.
Stalinism, Maoism, Naziism were all essentially political religions.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
The rhetoric on the list is frightening to me. What is often said about atheists closely resembles what is said about Jews. Anti-Jewish sentiment has led to a lot of persecution of Jews, and it could happen to atheists too.
Theocracies have always persecuted disbelievers. Atheism is still technically punishable by death in some countries.

Although there are problems with that definition,
Such as?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
It was the irrational ideological decisions of a god-like figurehead that lead to most of the deaths, not a general lack of belief in gods.
Stalinism, Maoism, Naziism were all essentially political religions.

Yeah, they in effect took something without observable evidence and declared it to belong to that category. But that doesn't make them religions per se, because their metaphysics is not supernatural.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
For example, to expect atheism to explain existence is like expecting the milkman to deliver the mail!
Not at all. Not only could the milkman deliver the mail, it might make good sense in some situations.
Atheism cannot explain existence. Ever.
A better analogy would be expecting the milkman to produce the milk from his own udders.

If we wish to explain existence, then atheism I think is a step in the right direction although science is ultimately the tool we should use.
Not necessarily. Atheism is more the result of scientific explanation rather than the cause. Remember that most of the great scientific discoveries in history were made by people who believed in god(s) and followed religions.

I should stress that atheists like anybody else should be open to constructive criticism. Some atheists deserve to be criticized. We don't want to look like we're in denial like many of the religious appear to be in denial.
Denial of what? No rational person would claim that atheists cannot be criticised, simply because they are atheists.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Yes. See Faith of the Fatherless: The Psychology of Atheism by Paul Vitz. He argues that atheists reject a heavenly father due to disappointment in their earthly father.
So what about all the atheists who have healthy relationships with their fathers? Or all the religionists who were disappointed with or never knew their father?
One would have thought that a person who didn't have a father figure would be looking for one, not rejecting the offer of a perfect one.

I'm probably not going to read that book, so could you explain how he deals with those problems? Thanks.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Yeah, they in effect took something without observable evidence and declared it to belong to that category. But that doesn't make them religions per se, because their metaphysics is not supernatural.
"Stalinism, Maoism, Naziism were all essentially political religions."
Also, they were certainly regarded as spiritual leaders having almost supernatural abilities, by the more fervent followers.
There was little practical difference.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
"Stalinism, Maoism, Naziism were all essentially political religions."
Also, they were certainly regarded as spiritual leaders having almost supernatural abilities, by the more fervent followers.
There was little practical difference.

Well, if you want to claim that religion is a special category, that is in the end somehow not natural and thus in effect supernatural, you can do so. To me religion is a complex set of natural human behaviours, where the claim of the supernatural is in effect an effect of how brains work sometimes. But that effect is not limited to standard supernatural religion.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Well, if you want to claim that religion is a special category, that is in the end somehow not natural and thus in effect supernatural, you can do so. To me religion is a complex set of natural human behaviours, where the claim of the supernatural is in effect an effect of how brains work sometimes. But that effect is not limited to standard supernatural religion.
So you agree that those ideologies were like religions to some degree.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
So you agree that those ideologies were like religions to some degree.

Well, yes. But it ends in how you connect religion as human behaviour to the world as such.
Here is a fun exercise. This is a non-complete list of different definitions of religion.
Definitions of Religion
So just as @firedragon would claim that there is a scholarly way to read a religious text, there are at least more scholarly ways to describe it than some folk definitions.
It is the same as when @Polymath257 says that there are different definitions and they end in useful and useless.

So here is its as a joke. Religion is a human behaviour, that is not just physical and all that as per natural science and how you/I/we/they understand religion, is as understanding itself not just natural science. :)
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I'd think it'd be more the opposite.
Dissatisfaction with one's "earthly" father leads one to create the "perfect" loving father, i.e. God.

Project the perfect being into existence so they can live happily ever afterlife.

Its nice to make facade assumptions about people with out any research. Nice endeavour really. ;)

Out of curiosity, which religion are you aiming at when you speak of them "creating" a "perfect" loving father, i.e. God?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Its nice to make facade assumptions about people with out any research. Nice endeavour really. ;)

Out of curiosity, which religion are you aiming at when you speak of them "creating" a "perfect" loving father, i.e. God?

None, we are talking about the psychology of individual humans and then it is not limited to religion.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
None, we are talking about the psychology of individual humans and then it is not limited to religion.

I asking Nakosis's view. You may have a different view.

Anyway, who created this "perfect loving father"? All religions, all humans, some? Since its talking about "creation" of a God, it should be long long ago. So who are "you two" (since you called yourselves "we") referring to?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
...

Anyway, who created this "perfect loving father"? All religions, all humans, some? Since its talking about "creation" of a God, it should be long long ago. So who are "you two" (since you called yourselves "we") referring to?

Well, no single individual created this "perfect loving father" and no single religion is just that. If you really want to play we in the combined sense of scholarly then that explanation is a half-truth. It is a single element that is true in some cases, but not all and thus some people, who favor single factor explanation drag it out as the only explanation.

"Keep it simple, but not too simple". Or if you like as reduction of elements in an explanation, find all the elements and not just some.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Well, no single individual created this "perfect loving father" and no single religion is just that. If you really want to play we in the combined sense of scholarly then that explanation is a half-truth. It is a single element that is true in some cases, but not all and thus some people, who favor single factor explanation drag it out as the only explanation.

"Keep it simple, but not too simple". Or if you like as reduction of elements in an explanation, find all the elements and not just some.

So bottomline is its just trying out various assumptions for fun. Nice. Thanks for the explanation. Good group.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Anyway, who created this "perfect loving father"? All religions, all humans, some? Since its talking about "creation" of a God, it should be long long ago.
If we look at the development of religions, the idealised monotheistic "father" god figure evolved rather than was created. Which fits rather nicely.
 
Google definition:

ideology - a system of ideas and ideals, especially one which forms the basis of economic or political theory and policy.

Yes, that's what I just described. A system of ideas and ideals that form the basis for the way we see the world and how it should be organised (i.e. Our moral, political and aesthetic worldview)

So it appears that I have the correct understanding of ideology, and you do not; you've mistaken morality for ideology. It would behoove you to check your facts before posting what you believe to be true.

Ethics form a part of your ideology. While ethics cannot be separated from ideology, ideology is not simply ethics.

If it helps your understanding, this is slightly more explicit:

Ideology: consists of ideas, beliefs, understandings and attitudes, etc. [and] contains statements of a normative character expressing morals, values, etc... advocating a particular pattern of social relationships and arrangements, and/or aimed at justifying a particular pattern of conduct, which its proponents seek to promote, realise, pursue or maintain

Malcolm Hamilton - The Elements of the Concept of Ideology

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1467-9248.1987.tb00186.x

or you could just read the wiki:

Ideology - Wikipedia

Then you need to explain why I have no ideology

That's just a conceit based on a misunderstanding of ideology I'm afraid.

You certainly have ethical values, preferences about how people should act and how societies should be organised, etc.

You have expressed these multiple ties in this thread, for example:

I don't normally categorize people as inherently good or evil. My solution to the world's problems, violence in particular, is to make sure people are well off. I've seen so much evil that results from evil.

3 statements of ideas and/or ideals that express normative values or preferences. There are dozens more in this thread alone.

So what is your ideology, and why do you have that ideology rather than some other ideology? Did you just accept that ideology for no reason other than becoming familiar with it?

Not that it's really relevant, but if I had to sum it up in 1 sentence: I was a secular humanist who stopped believing in human rationality and the Idea of Progress and so adopted the pre-Christian tragic view of humanity and the idea that the primary goal is to structure society in a manner the minimised the fact we are a stupid, irrational species who don't learn from our mistakes and who need to live peacefully with those we don't really like.

Why do I have that? Same as everyone else in the world, a combination of: where I grew up (culture), my family and friends and socialisation, my experiences, my education, ideas that I read or heard about and evaluated with rational thought rational thought, irrational biases and prejudices, rationalisation of that which I can't change, etc.

Your concept of ideology doesn't work because it posits a "primal ideology" from which original human action sprang. Again you've got it backwards. The behavior and instincts of primal humans eventually led to ideology when we evolved the ability to think about how to live in a civilized environment.

You misunderstand, It requires no "primal ideology". What you say above seems pretty similar to what I've been saying.

Ideology was the outgrowth of complex communication. Ideology thus coevolved with the progression to larger and more "civilised" populations, and was a hallmark of successful societies that eradicated or absorbed the less successful societies. So we have a coevolution of language, behaviours, instincts, group formation etc.

Prior to this, humans were likely similar to our social primate relatives. Chimps, for example, can only maintain small groups because they are limited by personal interaction hat largely relates to tangible realities. Society is organised by direct power and reciprocity.

Large scale society relies on us creating bonds of "fictive kinship" that allows people to feel they belong to the same group without the direct exercise of power or reciprocity with all/most group members (religions with their origin mythology are one example).

This is only possible because complex communication allowed us to create abstract concepts, which allows us to create bonds of fictive kinship, laws, complex moral codes, etc. all of which are dependent on ideology to justify and perpetuate.

Human instincts were at the bottom.

Not in any meaningful sense in the modern world.

Once we have millennia of abstraction, human instincts no longer have any necessary connection to reality. You may "instinctually" hate Jews, simply because of what you have read other people say about them, which they made up because of what other people made up, that they made up because of what other people made up, and what they made up because of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion which was made up.

Trying to understand German anti-Semitism purely through the lens of "instinct" without recourse to ideology would not be meaningful. The key point is how ideology 'manipulates' human instincts that evolved to be focused on survival, not discerning objective truth via rational evaluation of evidence

Abstraction starts to separate experience from reality. So in a small group, it would be hard for me to judge Saul to be a bad person if they had always been kind to group members and diligent in group endeavours.

Fast forward to Germany in 1939.

Fritz, Hans and Herman know no Jewish people. They are all from the same town, went to the same school and are all upper-middle class.

It would be perfectly possible for them to hold these views:

Fritz thinks Jews were just as good as other Germans and finds it terrible they are being oppressed by fanatics.

Hans thinks Jews are infidels who killed Jesus and that unless they convert to Christianity, they cannot be true Germans. If they do convert though, they are as good as any other Christian German.

Herman thinks science has shown Jews to be genetically inferior and finds the idea they will pollute pure German blood to be sickening. He believes Jews can never be German and they must be removed from Germany once and for all before it's too late.

All of these ideas are purely abstract, have no connection to directly experienced reality and may even be objectively wrong.

The hold different ideological views because of genetics, intelligence, upbringing and socialisation (family and friends), exposure to events, vicarious exposure to events (friends, media, etc.), exposure to abstract ideas (friends, books, media, educations, etc.), rational thought and argumentation, etc.

It is also perfectly possible that any one of them moves from their current beliefs, to adopt any one of the others.

You seem to be suggesting that it wouldn't matter which one of the ideologies they adopted, it wouldn't actually influence their behaviours in any way.
 
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