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Featured The abuse and abandonment of the teachings of Yeshua the Nazarene

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Marcion, May 15, 2019.

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  1. Marcion

    Marcion Active Member

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    You may think, who the heck is 'Yeshua the Nazarene'?
    That is probably what the first followers of the spiritual Master Yeshua (Jesus) called him.
    They did not think of him a Jesus Christ, as someone who could miraculously save them from damnation through a so-called 'vicarious sacrifice'. They saw him more as their divine Teacher who through his Self-Realisation was their nearest and dearest being to God, the Loving Father (Abba). They loved Him, felt a great attaction to Him and wished to serve Him, directly and indirectly and were promised their own self-realisation, their own re-unification with the 'Holy (Cosmic) Spirit' or the 'Rule of God'.

    They recalled and someone possibly wrote down many of his instructions and his other words in a document, that still existed when the authors of gMatthew and gLuke creatively wrote down their Christian gospels.
    That document still came closest to the original teachings and it reflected the original mission of Yeshua the Nazarene before he became transformed into the Christian Jesus Christ.

    That initial phase, when the mission was still controlled by Yeshua the Nazarene himself, did not last. Soon after that, a great confusion started and different missions sprang up developing their own competing types of myth and teaching around the great Master.

    Somewhere in the second century a dominant sect got the upperhand, although initially it was still divided between a Roman branch and a Marcionite branch. That sect grew into the Christian Church. It had twisted and absorbed the original document to make it fit into the Christian myths and ideology and had in fact abused the original teachings by abandoning them and exchanging them for the teachings of the Church.

    Several of the other sects survived for centuries more. But eventually they all became extinct and we know very little about their own myths and teachings because their scriptures were sadly enough no longer preserved and copied. We have to make do with what the Christians left us and with the analysis of how exactly they twisted and abused the original teachings of Yeshua the Nazarene.

    How I wish I could take a time machine and talk to some of the original followers the Nazarenes about their relationship to Yeshua and His teachings.
     
    #1 Marcion, May 15, 2019
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
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  2. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    There are plenty of current day/living messiahs about for you to look up, follow, question.

    Wishing for something you can't have is not going to get you anywhere. There were supposedly a number of messiahs back in the time of Yeshua as well. Folks took the same chance you would today in choosing who to follow. Maybe one of these modern day messiahs will start something popular.

    So you really have the same opportunity, options as those who decided to follow "Jesus". You don't need a time machine. Just pick whatever messiah that seems right to you, leave everything else behind and go follow them. Maybe they'll write a gospel based on your experiences too.
     
  3. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    I agree. But today earthly pleasures are the new god and most don’t really care about these things anymore.
     
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  4. Marcion

    Marcion Active Member

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    My wish is more connected to a desire to know what exactly happened (or went wrong) in and just after the misson of the original Yeshua the Nazarene.
    I already have a Master whose teachings are almost identical with those of Yeshua, so I am not looking for any (other) "Messiah" figure. It is more a historical curiosity that is very strong in me, something like the desire to know the exact evolutionary pathway of the human species.
     
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  5. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    The problem is that how to know the true messiah? Jesus first appeared as a carpenters Son right? Was that how the Jews expected? So on His return what if He again doesn’t return as people expect but as a prisoner or merchant are Christians going to recognize Him? They expect a huge New Year’s Eve fireworks display with trumpets and angels with Jesus riding on a cloud and dead bodies rising out of their graves and what if it doesn’t happen like that but He comes quietly like a thief in the night.. aren’t 2 billion Christians going to miss Him entirely as the Jews did the first time?

    The Jewish people believed their religious leaders so they rejected Jesus. What’s any different now because Christians believe everything their leaders tell them so if Jesus came and knocked on their door they would probably close it in His Face like the Jews did saying He’s an imposter and continue following their leaders.

    The Jews prayed everyday begging for the Messiah to appear but when He didn’t come the way they expected they murdered Him.
    Christians pray too for Christ’s return but anyone who doesn’t appear the way they want they will call an imposter even Jesus Himself.
     
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  6. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Yes, well sorry. I've come to accept there will be many questions about life I have which I will not have answers to before I die. I feel it or felt the same desire to know, but best IMO to let go of all that. To desire something that is not going to happen.

    And or if it does, it does. No sense in wasting time desiring something in the meantime. Who knows, maybe after you die, Yeshua will appear and explain everything. That's not here, that's not now.

    I see life as something to enjoy, whatever it is now at this moment. Just for me to be alive now, that is enough. It's all we really have. For whatever reason, we decide not to be content with that.
     
  7. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    You make your choices, best choices you can possibly make, just like the followers of Jesus did. Trust God to do the rest. Weren't those who killed Jesus simply fulfilling a necessary role? Should I claim to know God's purpose for anyone else, or even myself? I do not.
     
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  8. Marcion

    Marcion Active Member

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    Indeed it is spiritually best to not desire anything worldly. But science also progresses through the desire to know or discover things that are still unknown to us. And although scientific progress is not real progress at all from the spiritual viewpoint, I am a great fan of the development of scientific knowledge and don't believe that higher education and science should be discouraged (as in ISCKON and the J.W.).
     
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  9. dingdao

    dingdao The eternal Tao cannot be told - Tao Te Ching

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    It's easy to tell the impostors, Jesus will only return, according to the Bible and Catechism, when an asteroid impacts the earth.
    The Second Coming
     
  10. Gerry

    Gerry Well-Known Member

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    It sounds like you don’t believe we humans have free choice?
     
  11. Gerry

    Gerry Well-Known Member

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    Ah, but I think scientific progress brings us closer to god (in other words, spiritual progress)

    But only for those with an open mind.
     
  12. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    I believe we have free choice. I don't believe we can choose for others.
     
  13. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    Easy!!! History became legend, legend became myth...it's called NORMAL..
     
  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    The development of scientific knowledge has benefited mankind in many ways....but it has also had a devastating effect on the planet and on mankind as well.

    The knowledge that science can prove is a lot different to the science that requires vast amounts of guesswork. If you think that evolution is proven to have taken place, then you would be dead wrong. Science toys with ideas and tries to sell them without substantiating them before claiming to "know" what took place. It is best guessing based on bias towards their theory.

    BTW JW's are not anti-science....just 'anti-fantasy dressed up as fact'. We are not anti-higher education either...we just like to aim for the kind of education that will benefit us the most....and it doesn't involve a large salary or success in the world.


    Jesus told us exactly what would happen....

    Matthew 13:24-30
    "He presented another illustration to them, saying: “The Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a man who sowed fine seed in his field. 25 While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat and left. 26 When the stalk sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds also appeared. 27 So the slaves of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it have weeds?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ 29 He said, ‘No, for fear that while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers: First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse.’”

    Puzzled, his disciples asked for an explanation.....

    "Then after dismissing the crowds, he went into the house. His disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.” 37 In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; 38 the field is the world. As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen."

    So it was foretold that "weed-like" fake Christianity would be sown by the devil in the same "field" as the "wheat". Both would grow together, side by side until the harvest time......I believe that time is upon us.

    This apostasy would take Christianity far away from its roots and corrupt its teachings. That weedy fake Christianity is Christendom, whose teachings and conduct do not reflect those of Christ at all.

    They are so busy being friends with the world, that they forgot about being friends with God. (James 4:4)

    Jesus will be swift in his condemnation come the judgment.....

    "Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’" (Matthew 7:21-23)

    These claim Jesus as their "Lord" but disown him by their "lawless" conduct. What they did in his name was meaningless because they disobeyed everything he told his disciples to do.
     
  15. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    That’s what the Jews said before they murdered Jesus. They called Jesus and imposter and was He?
     
  16. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    Yes if your mind hasn’t been brainwashed that is by indoctrination which makes one’s mind devoid of logic, reason and rational.

    We have been given minds to think for ourselves but how many do that? Christians who have been told how to think by their leaders will find themselves incapable like the Jews were of accepting what is not in accordance with their expectations.

    So if Jesus appeared but there wasn’t an asteroid or angels flying in the sky with Him or some other concocted sign or fallacy then they would outright reject Him even if He was the genuine One.

    Because they see not through their own mind but through the mind of their leaders who’s ONLY concern is to maintain their own power.

    What do they think that the pope would hand over the keys to the Vatican upon Jesus return? They would denounce Him rather than give up their billions.
     
  17. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    I believe in the Jesus that teaches love, humility, forgiveness and to be kind to all regardless of belief.

    Jesus came for love for us to be perfectly united but it was not to be and so His true teachings of love and kindness got buried beneath the competition between sects for followers.
     
  18. Marcion

    Marcion Active Member

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    You are quoting from texts that Christians created themselves (from scratch). They are not the words of Yeshua the Nazarene but the words of Christians put into the mouth of their Jesus Christ. As a Christian following the Christian Church you have to accept the mixing up of the genuine words of Yeshua with those created by Christians, but I strictly distinguish between the two types of very different teachings because they are ideologically incompatible.
     
  19. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    The contradiction is Paul which negates the second coming or the entirety of Pauline Christianity. Whichever one would prefer.
     
  20. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    What?! What extra texts, detailing Jesus' life and teaching, do you have other than the Four Gospel accounts? Some that we're not privy to?
    If, by "ideologically incompatible", you're referring to texts like Matthew 18, maybe they've just been mistranslated and misunderstood.
     
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