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Featured The absurdity of Christianity and the sin of unbelief

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Hubert Farnsworth, Feb 7, 2019.

  1. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    Christianity is one of the most absurd religions in the world. It is a religion that teaches that God fathered himself, as well as his son, so that his son is his father and his father is his son, and his son's father is his father's father's son. Or something like that. In any case, the deity supposedly died via sacrificing himself to himself to let out all of his wrath toward his creations upon himself. He was mad at humans for their sinful nature that he created them with, and so he took out all of his anger upon himself, so that he could save humanity from going to Hell. The sacrificial atonement covers ALL sins, with the exception of one, namely, the sin of unbelief, which is punishable by an eternity in Hell. All other sins, no matter how evil, are excused, but unbelief in the deity or the sacrifice the deity made is punishable by an eternity of damnation, and in fact is the *only* thing that matters in determining whether one spends eternity in Hell or in the "Kingdom of Heaven" as it is so often referred to. Is this weird or what? Even as a child, I remember thinking about how weird it was that Christianity had such a crazy story, and that BELIEF was the sole criterion for determining one's eternal fate, and that unbelief was the only sin in the religion.
     
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  2. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    Belief may or may not be saving faith. I think Jonathan Edwards makes a good explanation why which is that God is glorified in man's dependence. With saving faith, man glorifies God leaning on the work of Jesus on the cross believing for eternal life.

    But it is hardly only Christianity that has being righteous by faith, look no further than Abraham who believed and was counted righteous. As Isaiah says, those who long to be righteous should look to Abraham (who save made righteous by faith)
     
    #2 whirlingmerc, Feb 7, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2019
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  3. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Somehow the devil was also defeated at the cross. A raging menace that roves around with power trying to devour souls. The devil , created as the second highest Angel, second only to god. Before the devil evil did not exist. But of its own free will it created wickedness. Thenafter the devil was thrown out of heaven, God made man. And man was subjected to the devil.

    How any of this stuff happens to an ideal God, and the masterful plan of the creator, doesnt seem all that well thought out.
     
  4. Musing Bassist

    Musing Bassist In Hac Lacrimarum Valle

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    It teaches that God exists as three equal and eternal persons in one divine substance. It also teaches that the Second Person became incarnate with a human and divine nature in hypostatic union.

    If I steal fifty dollars from you, my mere being sorry is not in and of itself enough to redeem the situation. Justice also demands that I make restitution for that theft by restoring to you what I have stolen. God possesses infinite dignity, and all sin being an offense against that dignity incurs infinite debt. An infinite debt only God as man could pay.

    The Crucifixion was an act of infinite merit made on our behalf. If sin incurs infinite debt, then an act of restitution by a man of infinite dignity incurs infinite merit. It was thus an act of love, not anger. Christ took it upon Himself to do what we could never; to perform an act of infinite merit. Not because God needs us, but because He loves us.

    The notion that God had to take out His own anger out upon Himself is a largely Protestant conceit.

    Sin isn't an inherent part of human nature. Sin is a distortion of that nature, to which we are prone not because we were created as sinful but because we lost the initial innocence of our original state. Human nature is still fundamentally good and thus we are still capable of being good. But our innocence is gone and consequently we inherent a state which makes us prone to sin. Nevertheless though the grace of God and by the practice of virtue we can overcome this tendency a great deal. This is actually a good thing in that our virtue becomes all the more meritorious when it is performed in the face of an inclination otherwise.

    Not true.

    The only unforgivable sin is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. In the Catholic tradition this is understood to mean a resolute and culpable rejection of God maintained until death. Every person who has ever and will ever live has been redeemed by Christ, there is nothing God won't forgive. (Even a lifetime of positive atheism repented of on one's deathbed). But if one obstinately insists on refusing that mercy by an unwillingness to reject sin then God will respect that wish by leaving one to the eternal consequences of those maintained sins. (No matter what those sins happen to be). Divine mercy is not entirely free, one still has to cooperate with it though baptism, the sacraments and a virtuous life.

    It boils done to this: God does not owe anyone salvation despite themselves.

    It is not. Believers who die unrepentant of mortal sin are just as damned as a person who dies in resolute atheism. The idea that you can simply believe your way into heaven without having done anything to merit it is again a Protestant conceit.
     
    #4 Musing Bassist, Feb 7, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
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  5. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Grief! I agree, that is craziness!

    I'm sure glad I don't believe that mess.
     
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  6. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    From what you have written here, I don't think you have any understanding of who God is or what the message of the Bible is.
     
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  7. Regiomontanus

    Regiomontanus non est ad astra mollis e terris via

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    Hello. I do not recognize the Christianity you are describing. Yikes.


    Peace
     
  8. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Strange Loop

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    Not surprising really - I've read the bible and found it to be an incoherent and often self-contradictory mess. I certainly saw no clear message.

    The OP seems to exaggerate - which isn't really necessary. There are so many different versions of Christianity (which emphasises that the bible has no clear message) it's difficult to be general but many regard people to be in some sort of "state of sin" or otherwise in need of "saving"; we have to suppose the Jesus died for some reason in most versions of Christianity (although I have heard some claiming Jesus' mission was a failure - that's how diverse Christianity can be).

    This leads us to the problem of god apparently condemning us for being the way we have been created - which is absurd. In versions of Christianity with original sin, this is supposed to be because of something that happened in the past (Adam and Eve and all that - literally or otherwise). This is hardly an excuse for god condemning us for being the way it made us. It was, after all, god that decided on the consequences of original sin.

    We then have the utterly bizarre act of god becoming human and murdering itself (then magicking itself back to life) in order for us to be forgiven for being condemned for being the way god made us. I've given up trying to make any sense of that.

    I've set this out on a few forums in the past and never had any sort of good answer. Very often it's pointed out that humans aren't perfect, we do "sin", so need forgiveness. The problem with that is that if everybody fails a test, then the test is obviously inappropriate and unfair. A just and fair god would not hold us to a standard that nobody can achieve because of the way we are - the way god made us.

    We then get to the further absurdity (in some versions of Christianity) of this forgiveness only being available if we believe all this - despite all its absurdities and without the hint of any objective evidence or sound reasoning. Perhaps god loves the overly credulous...
     
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  9. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Strange Loop

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    I totally fail to see how god making itself human and then being tortured to death (then magicked back to life) has any merit at all, let alone infinite merit. Seems totally bizarre and utterly pointless to me.

    Condemning us for something we inherit is unjust.

    So Hubert was actually right, we do need to believe this (totally unbelievable) story to avoid condemnation.
     
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  10. Musing Bassist

    Musing Bassist In Hac Lacrimarum Valle

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    Magic in so far as it exists concerns the preternatural effects (real or perceived) of demonic spirits (or any other created beings) upon something in nature. God does not perform preternatural acts, He performs supernatural acts not bound to the limitations of the natural or preternatural. Strictly speaking the supernatural pertains only to God. And when God executes His will by performing a miracle it is something entirely unrelated to the mere manipulation of nature by extra-normal means. But this is an aside.

    More importantly, God willed to conquer death on our behalf. And He did so by undergoing death as man. If sin entered the world though the act of one limited man, then it is all the more fitting that redemption be merited by the act of one infinite man. Romans 5:18. No man is infinite unless that man also happens to be God one in the same.

    Of course, the incarnation remains a mystery. The full significance and depth of it will never be fully comprehensible to us until we ourselves stand before that very man. And stand before Him we all will, sooner or later.

    Original sin is not a sin in the usual sense of the word, no more than anyone is at fault for inheriting a genetic disorder. But just as a parent can pass on a genetic flaw to offspring, our progenitors passed on their loss of created innocence to us. We are not condemned for that; we are condemned for an unrepentant will maintained until death.

    If one's disbelief is culpable, then it is a sin like any other. And just like any other grave sin if it is maintained until one's very last breath then it becomes a blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which is unforgivable. My own experience both as an atheist in my teens, and my interaction with many of them on the internet leads me to the suspicion that most are guilty of culpable disbelief. That is, their disbelief has been willfully cultivated. They have willfully chosen to deny the truth God has written in their hearts. Romans 1:18-19

    Of course, while I maintain my suspicions of atheism as a cultural phenomenon and its true motivations, it is not my place to presume to know the heart of any given person. Indeed as the catechism states:

    2125 Since it rejects or denies the existence of God, atheism is a sin against the virtue of religion. The imputability of this offense can be significantly diminished in virtue of the intentions and the circumstances. "Believers can have more than a little to do with the rise of atheism. To the extent that they are careless about their instruction in the faith, or present its teaching falsely, or even fail in their religious, moral, or social life, they must be said to conceal rather than to reveal the true nature of God and of religion."

    Catechism of the Catholic Church - The first commandment
     
    #10 Musing Bassist, Feb 8, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
  11. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Strange Loop

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    None of which makes the slightest sense of the bizarre act of god making itself human, torturing itself to death and them 'supernaturally' coming back to life. God makes the rules here - does it like inflicting pain on itself?

    So god makes us with an inherent flaw and then condemns us for not repenting for having the flaw god gave us. What's more, it gives us absolutely no reason at all (in my experience) to take any of this seriously. No objective evidence and no logical reasoning. This message to us is hidden amongst all the other (presumably false) religions and looks, for all the world, exactly like all the other baseless myths people believe in.

    If god wants us to hear this message (absurd as it is) why doesn't it make it absolutely obvious to everybody? Why the silly game of hide-and-seek?

    So not believing this apparently absurd story, with no supporting evidence, and no logical reasoning, is the absolutely worse sin it's possible to commit, worse than (say) child rape, murder, and genocide?
     
  12. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Rather, I find it is Christendom ( apostate Christians ) who teach God fathered himself.
    Scripture teaches God is from everlasting ( No beginning)
    Whereas the pre-human heavenly Jesus was the beginning of the creation by God - Revelation 3:14 B.
    So, only God was before the beginning. Jesus was Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning.
    Also, Christendom ( Not Christianity ) teaches a religious-myth hell of burning forever.
    Whereas, the Bible's hell is simply mankind's temporary stone-cold grave for the sleeping dead.
    Jesus and the old Hebrew Scriptures teach un-conscious sleep in death:
    - John 11:11-14; Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5
    The Bible's hell ( aka grave) comes to a final end according to Revelation 20:13-14.
    After everyone in biblical hell is ' delivered up ' ( that means resurrected out of the Bible's hell ) then emptied-out hell is then cast into a symbolic ' second death ' for vacated hell.

    Plus, Christendom mostly ignores that Jesus taught humble meek people will inherit the Earth - Psalms 37:9-11.
    We are all invited to pray the invitation for Jesus to come ! - Revelation 22:20
    Come and bring the benefit of healing to earth's nations as per Revelation 22:2.
    Earth's nations are here on Earth, so this is where the healing for earth's nations will be.
    Healing as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.
    So, don't let the false teachings of Christendom crowd out that besides heaven, everlasting life on Earth is also promised.
    Humble meek people will inherit the Earth.
     
  13. viole

    viole Metaphysical Naturalist
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    Is dying and staying dead for a few days, before returning as the master of the Universe, really an infinite payment back?

    Looks like a pretty cheap bargain to me. Everybody would do that.

    I would do it for far less than infinite. A few millions? Some pain for a few days, a bit of dreamless sleep and than back alive and kicking with a few millions? Anytime.

    Ciao

    - viole
     
    #13 viole, Feb 8, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
  14. viole

    viole Metaphysical Naturalist
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    That is why there is a condemnation. in the hope that fear is bigger than laugh.

    Ciao

    - viole
     
  15. Woberts

    Woberts The Perfumed Seneschal

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    I can confirm, I would crucify myself if it means three days later I'm a god.
     
  16. viole

    viole Metaphysical Naturalist
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    Especially when you know that in advance, as He did, according to the myth.

    Ciao

    - viole
     
  17. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    There is, I believe, a huge upside to this. The massive superiority of Christendom over the Muslim world is directly attributable to the irrationality of some fundamentals of Christianity.

    As a result, sophisticated thinkers and ethicists and scientists stopped considering Holy Writ the sacrosanct Word of God and started thinking for themselves. So we have vastly more sophisticated ethics and science and governments.

    This is in pretty stark contrast to the Muslim world, which largely remains mired in medieval culture and politics.
    Tom
     
    #17 columbus, Feb 8, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
  18. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    Nonsense.
    If you have infinite money, a $50 theft becomes infinitesimally small.
    Tom
     
  19. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe it is quite rational.

    Let us start with belief.If I believe in stopping at stop sign and another person does not. The likely result is that I will not get into an accident but the other person will. In other words believing that Jesus will save me from sin means that I will not have to suffer the consequences of sin but a person who is not saved from sin will have to suffer the consequences of his sin.
     
  20. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe God knew the consequences of creating entities with free will. I think it is a matter of risk reward. The reward is worth the risk.
     
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