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The Absolute Truth

Bird123

Well-Known Member
If you were 100% certain that you knew the absolute truth, about God, the creation of the universe, what happens after death, etc...

Would you feel that any action necessary to get this truth out to the rest of the world would be justified?


Is it really intelligent to give someone a blank check? Any action could cover things people would not want to happen.

There is another question. How many people actually seek these absolute truths?

Let's look at what God does and maybe there is an answer. God places knowledge all around us. All the secrets of the universe stare us in the face waiting for someone to Discover it. How long did mankind watch birds fly before they figured our how? The knowledge has always been there waiting for us.

The first step is for a person to desire to Discover the absolute truth. With this in mind, I think it's good to place Truth in the world. I do it every day. On the other hand, if one seeks converts and followers, then it will no longer be about Truth.

Everybody wants to rule the world. People must be free to choose what they want to Discover rather than intimidated or controlled.

The dynamics of this world are simply amazing. Life isn't about God or worrying about dying. Life is about Living and Learning through our free choices. On the other hand, if one seeks the knowledge of your absolute truth, It can be Discovered. The answers are all around you. God hides nothing. The answers await your Discovery.

One could tell you the absolute truth, however it would not be the same as Discovering it for yourself.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Not everyone can be honest with themselves.

True, but it is a subjective hypothetical judgement as to who is honest with themselves, and claiming to know the truth makes your claim to be honest with yourself highly questionable considering you are a fallible human like everyone else..
 

Samana Johann

Restricted by request
“...And if I were to teach the Dhamma and if others would not understand me, that would be tiresome for me, troublesome for me.”...

Mv I 05: Brahmayācanakathā — The Discussion of the Brahmā’s Request

(Mv.I.5.1) [7] Then, with the passing of seven days, after emerging from that concentration, the Blessed One went from the root of the Rājāyatana tree to the Goatherd’s Banyan tree. He stayed there at the root of the Goatherd’s Banyan tree.

(Mv.I.5.2) Then, while he was alone and in seclusion, this line of thinking arose in his awareness:



“This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise.

“But this generation delights in attachment, is excited by attachment, enjoys attachment.

“For a generation delighting in attachment, excited by attachment, enjoying attachment, these things are hard to see: this/that conditionality and dependent co-arising.

“This state, too, is very hard to see: the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.

“And if I were to teach the Dhamma and if others would not understand me, that would be tiresome for me, troublesome for me.”

(Mv.I.5.3) Just then these verses, unspoken in the past, unheard before, occurred to the Blessed One:

Enough now with teaching what only with difficulty I reached. This Dhamma is not easily realized by those overcome with aversion & passion. What is fine, subtle, deep, hard to see, going against the flow — those delighting in passion, cloaked in the mass of darkness, won’t see.
(Mv.I.5.4) As the Blessed One reflected thus, his mind inclined to dwelling at ease, not to teaching the Dhamma.

[8] Then Brahmā Sahampati, having known with his own awareness the line of thinking in the Blessed One’s awareness, thought: “The world is lost! The world is destroyed! In that the mind of the Tathāgata, the Arahant, the Rightly Self-awakened One inclines to dwelling at ease, not to teaching the Dhamma!”

(Mv.I.5.5) Then, just as a strong man might extend his flexed arm or flex his extended arm, Brahmā Sahampati disappeared from the Brahmā-world and reappeared in front of the Blessed One.

(Mv.I.5.6) Arranging his upper robe over one shoulder, he knelt down with his right knee on the ground, saluted the Blessed One with his hands before his heart, and said to him: “Lord, let the Blessed One teach the Dhamma! Let the One-Well-Gone teach the Dhamma! There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.”

(Mv.I.5.7) That is what Brahmā Sahampati said. Having said that, he further said this:

In the past there appeared among the Magadhans an impure Dhamma devised by the stained. Throw open the door to the Deathless! Let them hear the Dhamma realized by the Stainless One! Just as one standing on a rocky crag might see people all around below, So, O wise one, with all-around vision, ascend the palace fashioned of the Dhamma. Free from sorrow, behold the people submerged in sorrow, oppressed by birth & aging. Rise up, hero, victor in battle! O Caravan-leader, wander without debt in the world. Teach the Dhamma, O Blessed One: There will be those who will understand.[1]
(Mv.I.5.8) When that was said, the Blessed One said to Brahmā Sahampati, “To me, Brahmā, this thought occurred, ‘This Dhamma that I have attained is deep …’

“As I reflected thus, Brahmā, my mind inclined to dwelling at ease, not to teaching the Dhamma.”

A second time, Brahmā Sahampati said to the Blessed One, “Lord, let the Blessed One teach the Dhamma! …”

A second time, the Blessed One said to Brahmā Sahampati, “Brahmā, this thought occurred to me, ‘This Dhamma that I have attained is deep …’

“As I reflected thus, Brahmā, my mind inclined to dwelling at ease, not to teaching the Dhamma.”

A third time, Brahmā Sahampati said to the Blessed One, “Lord, let the Blessed One teach the Dhamma! …Teach the Dhamma, O Blessed One: There will be those who will understand.”

(Mv.I.5.10) [9] Then the Blessed One, having understood Brahmā’s invitation, out of compassion for beings, surveyed the world with the eye of an Awakened One. As he surveyed the world with the eye of an Awakened One, he saw beings with little dust in their eyes and those with much, those with keen faculties and those with dull, those with good attributes and those with bad, those easy to teach and those hard, some of them seeing disgrace and danger in the other world.

(Mv.I.5.11) Just as in a pond of blue or red or white lotuses, some blue or red or white lotuses—born and growing in the water—might flourish while immersed in the water, without rising up from the water; some might stand at an even level with the water; while some might rise up from the water and stand without being smeared by the water —

(Mv.I.5.12) so too, surveying the world with the eye of an Awakened One, the Blessed One saw beings with little dust in their eyes and those with much, those with keen faculties and those with dull, those with good attributes and those with bad, those easy to teach and those hard, some of them seeing disgrace and danger in the other world.

Having seen this, he answered Brahmā Sahampati in verse:

Open are the doors to the Deathless. Let those with ears unleash their conviction. Perceiving trouble, O Brahmā, I did not tell people the refined, sublime Dhamma.”
(Mv.I.5.13) Then Brahmā Sahampati, thinking, “I’m the one who created the opportunity for the teaching of the Dhamma by the Blessed One,” bowed down to the Blessed One, circumambulated him, keeping him to his right, and disappeared right there.[/qoute]
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Are you assuming there is something more?
View attachment 31545

Regardless of whether God exists or not, there is truth beyond the limits of fallible human comprehension; ie it is beyond our abilities in science to objectively determine whether our physical existence is infinite, eternal, or finite and temporal. It is not a falsifiable hypothesis either way.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If you were 100% certain that you knew the absolute truth, about God, the creation of the universe, what happens after death, etc...

Would you feel that any action necessary to get this truth out to the rest of the world would be justified?
Outside this sentence there are no absolute truths.

Nonetheless at any particular time I think we can make accurate statements about reality ─ that's to say, statements that are true.

I think the following statements are true at this time:

There is no coherent concept of a real god.
The only way gods are known to exist is as concepts in individual brains.
The Big Bang theory is easily the best-credentialed explanation of the origin of the universe.
Each life is a biochemical/bioelectrical pattern which is irretrievably lost at death.​

And no, I don't go out of my way to make sure the world knows this.
 
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Ponder This

Well-Known Member
How about if knowledge of the truth was able to save people from a terrible fate? Wouldn't you feel some obligation to save your fellow man?

What if someone went about claiming by jumping of of a particular clift you could meet God and you knew this wasn't true. Would you feel an obligation to warn people about this, tell them the truth? Or would you let them find out for themselves?

Sure I'd warn them... but is that really your question? Let me ask you this:
Would you break a child's legs just to keep him from crossing the road?

You can, of course, invent a moral quandary as so many philosophers before us have done, but then, at that point, we would know you were making up a situation for the purpose of justifying a terrible action. You can probably get people to agree to all sorts of horrible things that way.

If you knew that by inventing situations, you could get other people to do all sorts of horrible things, would you invent such situations?
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Sure I'd warn them... but is that really your question? Let me ask you this:
Would you break a child's legs just to keep him from crossing the road?

You can, of course, invent a moral quandary as so many philosophers before us have done, but then, at that point, we would know you were making up a situation for the purpose of justifying a terrible action. You can probably get people to agree to all sorts of horrible things that way.

If you knew that by inventing situations, you could get other people to do all sorts of horrible things, would you invent such situations?

We should probably ask those who created the horrible fate of hell.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Outside this sentence there are no absolute truths.

Nonetheless at any particular time I think we can make accurate statements about reality ─ that's to say, statements that are true.

I think the following statements are true at this time:

There is no coherent concept of a real god.
The only way gods are known to exist is as concepts in individual brains.
The Big Bang theory is easily the best-credentialed explanation of the origin of the universe.
Each life is a biochemical/bioelectrical pattern which is irretrievably lost at death.​

And no, I don't go out of my way to make sure the world knows this.

Seems you are pretty certain about everyone's ultimate fate. Since nothing can save them from this, what's to tell?
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
True, but it is a subjective hypothetical judgement as to who is honest with themselves, and claiming to know the truth makes your claim to be honest with yourself highly questionable considering you are a fallible human like everyone else..

I don't think I ever claimed to know the truth, but I have inferred that I may know it so I'll respond. The truth just is, what is most valuable is the search; through which, you need to understand individual and human falsies. You need to be open to new views and testing your current views. Indeed finding the truth is really about finding you and humanity. There never will be a self help book explaining it so you don't have to bother with anyone trying to sell the absolute truth.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
If you were 100% certain that you knew the absolute truth, about God, the creation of the universe, what happens after death, etc...

Would you feel that any action necessary to get this truth out to the rest of the world would be justified?

No.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member

You are an atheist. What the hell do you know? :p

Whereas I've seen in religions like Scientology where they believe they have the absolute answer to life, the universe and everything. Folks like that seem to feel any action they take is justified in the support of their truth.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I don't think I ever claimed to know the truth, but I have inferred that I may know it so I'll respond. The truth just is, what is most valuable is the search; through which, you need to understand individual and human falsies. You need to be open to new views and testing your current views. Indeed finding the truth is really about finding you and humanity. There never will be a self help book explaining it so you don't have to bother with anyone trying to sell the absolute truth.

Here in post #35
bobhikes said:
The problem with teaching the absolute truth is that it is learned through your experiences and your logic through open world and self examination. The absolute truth can only be learned by the individual. This is why when you go to a real guru he asks you questions and doesn't give you answer's, you will only accept and understand the absolute truth if you find it.

So no once you understand the Absolute Truth you realize you can't teach the rest of the world you can only try to put them on the path, with open questions, parables, and stories. The individual must seek the truth themselves.

Needs explanation.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Ok, then what is truth?

Simply by the definition -

From: https://www.google.com/search?q=truth&oq=truth&aqs=that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality...69i57j0l3j69i60l2.6181j1j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality.

There are many things that cannot be absolutely 'determined 'in accordance with fact and reality.' There is a great deal.knowledge that we may have knowledge 'in accordance with fact and reality,' but the knowledge is subject to change over time. This is the reason in science scientific knowledge is not proven nor considered absolute truth, and there are many things we cannot falsify like; Whether of physical existence is infinite or eternal or finite or temporal.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Simply by the definition -

From: https://www.google.com/search?q=truth&oq=truth&aqs=that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality...69i57j0l3j69i60l2.6181j1j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality.

There are many things that cannot be absolutely 'determined 'in accordance with fact and reality.' There is a great deal.knowledge that we may have knowledge 'in accordance with fact and reality,' but the knowledge is subject to change over time. This is the reason in science scientific knowledge is not proven nor considered absolute truth, and there are many things we cannot falsify like; Whether of physical existence is infinite or eternal or finite or temporal.

I agree with that assesment of physical reality.

Do you see any truth coming from spiritual/moral aspects of being?

Can we derive any truthes by our experiences also?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I agree with that assesment of physical reality.

Do you see any truth coming from spiritual/moral aspects of being?

Can we derive any truths by our experiences also?

As far as spiritual/moral aspects of nature of our existence. I do not believe the concept of Truth in terms of 'fact and reality' fits here. The problem with 'truth claims' in these realms there are far too many contradictory and conflicting claims.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
As far as spiritual/moral aspects of nature of our existence. I do not believe the concept of Truth in terms of 'fact and reality' fits here. The problem with 'truth claims' in these realms there are far too many contradictory and conflicting claims.

I tend to think there are aspects of being that fly off of many people's radar. The spiritual heart of mankind for instance.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
The Absolute Truth

Absolute Truth is G-d Himself, humans could know only what he revealed about Himself, nothing beyond that.

Regards
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The Absolute Truth

Absolute Truth is G-d Himself, humans could know only what he revealed about Himself, nothing beyond that.

Regards

Humans only know about God in the limited perspective as fallible humans. What is revealed by God is often warped in egocentric terms to apply to a limited cultural perspective.
 
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