The Absolute Oneness of God

[psychoslice]

How about yours? Can you tell me how the Universe was caused to exist? That's my favorite question I never seem to get an answer from an atheist or even a Christian.

Have you ever heard of science ?..........if not then do some homework.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Have you ever heard of science ?..........if not then do some homework.

Have you ever heard of the Tanach? if not, do some homework too. Science says that the Universe began with the BB about 14 billions of years ago. If the Universe began, it has an age; if it has an age, it was caused to begin because, according to Logic, something cannot cause itself to exist. Now, comes my favorite question: Who or what caused the Universe to exist? Scientists do not know. Do you?

 

[Windwalker]

It is a Spirit if you read John 4:24. Do you have any idea what a Spirit is?

If you read John 4:24 it does not say what you say here. It does not say God is a Spirit. It says God is Spirit. πνευμα ο θεος. The definite article is on God, not on Spirit. If you imagine God is a ghost, which is what you must if you think Jesus said God is a spirit, then it's clear what you imagine about God in your speculations reflects a more childlike imagination of a banshee-like apparition or another. I don't think many others here think of God this way, nor speak of God like this. Jesus certainly didn't.

 

[Ben Avraham]

If you read John 4:24 it does not say what you say here. It does not say God is a Spirit. It says God is Spirit. πνευμα ο θεος. The definite article is on God, not on Spirit. If you imagine God is a ghost, which is what you must if you think Jesus said God is a spirit, then it's clear what you imagine about God in your speculations reflects a more childlike imagination of a banshee-like apparition or another. I don't think many others here think of God this way, nor speak of God like this. Jesus certainly didn't.

Sorry Windwalker! You are right. "God is Spirit". Myself of all people, should know that much better. I totally agree with
you and with the reason why. Thanks for reminding me of my mistake.

 

[Windwalker]

Sorry Windwalker! You are right. "God is Spirit". Myself of all people, should know that much better. I totally agree with
you and with the reason why. Thanks for reminding me of my mistake.

If this is the case then, which is good to hear, then if God is Spirit do you believe this means God is absolute One, without division, that God is Infinite and therefore nothing can possibly exist outside this Infinite God? In other words if God is Infinite, how could He be considered "a being", and not Being itself?

 

[Ben Avraham]

If this is the case then, which is good to hear, then if God is Spirit do you believe this means God is absolute One, without division, that God is Infinite and therefore nothing can possibly exist outside this Infinite God? In other words if God is Infinite, how could He be considered "a being", and not Being itself?

Every thing exists outside the infinity of God because He is the Primal Cause that caused the Universe to exist. Now, as "a Being" and "The Being Itself" yes, The Primal Cause is The Being Itself. That follows the same analogy of the Spirit instead of a Spirit. And last but not least, the Primal Cause is all Infinity while His Creation does not partake of that concept.

 

[Jainarayan]

This is the basis for the conviction that there is only one God

No, it simply means he wants primacy of worship. That does not deny the existence of other gods.

 

[Windwalker]

Every thing exists outside the infinity of God because He is the Primal Cause that caused the Universe to exist. Now, as "a Being" and "The Being Itself" yes, The Primal Cause is The Being Itself. That follows the same analogy of the Spirit instead of a Spirit. And last but not least, the Primal Cause is all Infinity while His Creation does not partake of that concept.

What I don't understand is that Infinity means it has no boundaries, no borders. If it had boundaries, where things exist outside it, then it is not infinite, but finite. How can creation be considered outside God, and God remain Infinite? It would seem there is a boundary around God, and he would be "a being", instead of Being itself. If something literally, not metaphorically, exists outside God, then God is not Infinite. How do you understand this and maintain God is actually Infinite? Is he Infinite in some other reality? If so, then you still have the same problem. It's a limited reality not encompassing all Reality, and hence not Infinite at all.

 

[Nakosis]

Okay, I am ready to consider your idea of God if you demonstrate to me how "Out of existence" could have caused the Universe to exist. Or, how "Good or Bad" could have caused the Universe to exist. My definition of God is the same as the definition Jesus presented of Him: A Spirit. (John 4:24)

My fantasy about God, since I've no reason to believe God exists or doesn't, would be God is the totality of what exists here and now. What is here and now is constantly changing. God and the totality of the universe would be the same thing. One does not exist without the other. So there was no time when either did not exist.

It's man's concept of everything had a beginning and will have an end. The universe always existed in some form or another. Since in this concept, God and the universe and the same. God also always existed and always will. There was no cause for the universe just as I assume you'd believe there was no cause for God. If one could have always existed, why not the other?

You define God as separate from the universe? Whereas I'd see it more likely that God and the universe were the same. So is your definition of God bad and mine good? I don't know God is not around to tell us.

 

[Jainarayan]

The question I have to ask is "why is it necessary to prove God's existence?" Is one's faith so shaky that proof is needed?

 

[Ben Avraham]

My fantasy about God, since I've no reason to believe God exists or doesn't, would be God is the totality of what exists here and now. What is here and now is constantly changing. God and the totality of the universe would be the same thing. One does not exist without the other. So there was no time when either did not exist.

It's man's concept of everything had a beginning and will have an end. The universe always existed in some form or another. Since in this concept, God and the universe and the same. God also always existed and always will. There was no cause for the universe just as I assume you'd believe there was no cause for God. If one could have always existed, why not the other?

You define God as separate from the universe? Whereas I'd see it more likely that God and the universe were the same. So is your definition of God bad and mine good? I don't know God is not around to tell us.

So, you have no reason to believe that the Primal Cause exists. In that case, you have all the reason in the world to believe that you caused yourself to exist; did you? If your answer is positive, how could you have caused yourself to exist if you did not exist? On the other hand, how could you have caused yourself to exist if you had to exist to do so? To the first instance, you could not have caused yourself to exist because you did not exist to do so. And to the second instance, you could not have caused yourself to exist because you already existed and there was no need to further cause yourself to exist. What is then the solution to this paradox? Someone who preceded you caused you to exist aka your parents. And your parents, their parents, and their parents? Now, you know that I am talking about generic causality. Now, if you go back to the first couple of parents, who caused them to exist? See, it was not so hard. I have proved to you the existence of the Primal Cause, aka the Creator of the Universe. Baruch HaShem!

 

[Ben Avraham]

The question I have to ask is "why is it necessary to prove God's existence?" Is one's faith so shaky that proof is needed?

Atheists; they are the masters of the shaky faith you are talking about. I have no need to further prove the existence of HaShem because I already know It. But they are unable to understand a theological concept outside their empty theories.

 

[Ben Avraham]

What I don't understand is that Infinity means it has no boundaries, no borders. If it had boundaries, where things exist outside it, then it is not infinite, but finite. How can creation be considered outside God, and God remain Infinite? It would seem there is a boundary around God, and he would be "a being", instead of Being itself. If something literally, not metaphorically, exists outside God, then God is not Infinite. How do you understand this and maintain God is actually Infinite? Is he Infinite in some other reality? If so, then you still have the same problem. It's a limited reality not encompassing all Reality, and hence not Infinite at all.

You're right! The Infinity of the Primal Cause has no boundaries or borders but, the things caused to exist do. They are not partakers of Infinity. They had a beginning. Obviously, it goes without say, that they are limited by death or the end of their existence. From outside the Universe, HaShem caused the Universe to exist. If you have children, when you caused them to exist, you did not become your children but apart from them. HaShem is infinite in Himself without becoming one with His Creation which is not infinite.

 

[QuestioningMind]

How about yours? Can you tell me how the Universe was caused to exist? That's my favorite question I never seem to get an answer from an atheist or even a Christian.

At this point in time we don't have enough information available to say with any certainty what caused the big bang. That's a perfectly acceptable answer for people who are genuinely seeking the truth. Unfortunately there are plenty of others who for one reason or another can't accept "We don't know for sure' and insist on making up answers and pretending like they're demonstrable facts.

 

[Nakosis]

So, you have no reason to believe that the Primal Cause exists. In that case, you have all the reason in the world to believe that you caused yourself to exist; did you? If your answer is positive, how could you have caused yourself to exist if you did not exist? On the other hand, how could you have caused yourself to exist if you had to exist to do so? To the first instance, you could not have caused yourself to exist because you did not exist to do so. And to the second instance, you could not have caused yourself to exist because you already existed and there was no need to further cause yourself to exist. What is then the solution to this paradox? Someone who preceded you caused you to exist aka your parents. And your parents, their parents, and their parents? Now, you know that I am talking about generic causality. Now, if you go back to the first couple of parents, who caused them to exist? See, it was not so hard. I have proved to you the existence of the Primal Cause, aka the Creator of the Universe. Baruch HaShem!

I'm not really saying all that. What I'm saying it's possible. Just like whatever you feel likely happened is possible.

What I'm really saying is I don't think man knows enough at this point at least to make any kind of informed determination of if the universe was created or not or if so, how all that come about. Just as likely the truth is something no one has conceived of yet.

Who cause who to exist? You are defining arbitrary boundaries. I am a continuation of my parents who were a continuation of their parents before them. Just a continuation of the same entity that has always existed. You, as all men do, makeup boundaries and definitions and call it truth. Something purely fictional from the mind of man.

What I know is that I am here now and I, along with the universe is constantly changing. Everything else is speculation.

 

[psychoslice]

Have you ever heard of the Tanach? if not, do some homework too. Science says that the Universe began with the BB about 14 billions of years ago. If the Universe began, it has an age; if it has an age, it was caused to begin because, according to Logic, something cannot cause itself to exist. Now, comes my favorite question: Who or what caused the Universe to exist? Scientists do not know. Do you?

So call logic doesn't always work, especially something we don't understand, logic can only be useful when we know it to be true which we don't as you also don't.

We cannot possibly truly know what happened before the big bang, and science don't pretend they know, they only have theories of what may have happened. And even if something did cause the big bang, it doesn't mean it has to be a god of sorts, we don't have to personalize it and worship it, that to be is ignorance and superstitious rubbish.

 

[Jainarayan]

Atheists; they are the masters of the shaky faith you are talking about. I have no need to further prove the existence of HaShem because I already know It. But they are unable to understand a theological concept outside their empty theories.

Then why the dissertation in the op? Why do you care what atheists believe unless you are trying to proselytize and evangelize, and sway them?

 

[Vinayaka]

Then why the dissertation in the op? Why do you care what atheists believe unless you are trying to proselytize and evangelize, and sway them?

In all your years here, have you ever seen an atheist swayed?

 

[Ben Avraham]

Then why the dissertation in the op? Why do you care what atheists believe unless you are trying to proselytize and evangelize, and sway them?

My main point is to work with Christians in defense of Judaism which was the faith of Jesus. Somehow, I am not quite sure, atheists get into the discussion and I'll have to defend the truth of the Primal Cause aka the Creator of the Universe. I am not trying to evangelize either Christian or atheist. In fact, we are forbidden by our own Rabbis to get involved on proselytization.

 

[Ben Avraham]

So call logic doesn't always work, especially something we don't understand, logic can only be useful when we know it to be true which we don't as you also don't.

We cannot possibly truly know what happened before the big bang, and science don't pretend they know, they only have theories of what may have happened. And even if something did cause the big bang, it doesn't mean it has to be a god of sorts, we don't have to personalize it and worship it, that to be is ignorance and superstitious rubbish.

If you cannot accept the truth that the Primal Cause caused the Universe to exist, you must think about all the consequences as a result of expressing your opinion against a theistic view of Creation, especially if he is a Jewish person. Otherwise, you would expose yourself as a fool.