1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured The “naturalist” Problem of Suffering

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by leroy, Jul 28, 2022.

  1. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    59,956
    Ratings:
    +40,010
    Religion:
    Atheist
    LOL! Still the master of the strawman.
     
    • Winner Winner x 4
  2. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

    Joined:
    May 5, 2007
    Messages:
    31,985
    Ratings:
    +15,479
    Religion:
    Atheist, Advaita (Non-duality), Orthodox Hindu
    No, I will do it only for my children and closest relatives. I am against keeping pets in the house for reasons of cleanliness (I am a brahmin). I am against keeping them captive and dance to our tunes. I would not walk your dog and pick up the poo (we do not have to do that it India, nature takes care of it). :)
     
  3. Sheldon

    Sheldon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2021
    Messages:
    10,825
    Ratings:
    +7,128
    Religion:
    None
    Pain can be a difficult concept though, since it is of course a subjective experience, as we are all born with varying pain thresholds. Sometimes babies are born with a pain threshold so high they effectively feel no pain, they tend not to live very long, though it does happen. Read a story recently about a 60+ year old women who'd been walking around limping on a compound fracture of her ankle, and didn't know. Turns out she can't feel any pain.

    We can work on our pain tolerance level of course, if like me you're unlucky enough to suffer chronic pain, it's often all you can do. Luckily it's not often unbearable, every cloud and all that...
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  4. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2018
    Messages:
    6,428
    Ratings:
    +519
    Religion:
    christian
    Nobody is disputing that,

    The claim is that under darwinism (random mutations + natural selection) can´t account for conscious suffering (and all the benefits that come with it)

    Start with 2 colonies of fish

    1 they react and scape when a larger fish bites them (but have no conscious suffering)

    2 they react and scape when a larger fish bites them , and they would also experience conscious suffering, why would natural selection select “2” over 1?
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  5. BrightShadow

    BrightShadow Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2021
    Messages:
    207
    Ratings:
    +44
    Religion:
    non
    On a serious note - I don't think Atheists have any problem explaining "suffering" and living with "suffering".
    Suffering is explainable via natural selection. IMO. Yes! it is explainable to a certain degree. But why only one intelligent species (humans) came into the equation is a mystery!
    That is why I think both theists and naturalist can be half right! God could have put Adam at a point in time when some Apes were just about to get clever!:monkeyface::soonarrow::menholdinghands:

    Anyhow, I believe - Atheists have a bigger problem. They are not obtaining a passport to get into God's immediate kingdom because they have a "lack of belief" that such a place exists!

    If someone wants to know why God created a world with sufferings - then I would answer with a few questions... Why do we create jails? Why do we separate criminals from the society and incarcerate them? Why do we put them in a condition where they are not entirely comfortable? Why do we put them with other dangerous criminals where they could suffer?

    You got the gist?;)

    We are sent here in our physical body and not in our soul form. Assuming the descriptions in some of the religions are true and assuming there is a God and we have a soul - what reason does a creator have to send us in a physical body and not in our soul form? :shrug:
     
  6. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    59,956
    Ratings:
    +40,010
    Religion:
    Atheist

    If you want to learn about evolution and stop using laughably ignorant strawman arguments you need to start off on the right foot. You know what the proper term is. Darwin was a genius, but he had limited information so there are details that he got wrong. No one, except for rather uneducated people, tend to use the term "Darwinism" today.

    If you want to be wrong that is your choice.
     
    • Winner Winner x 3
  7. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2018
    Messages:
    6,428
    Ratings:
    +519
    Religion:
    christian
    The dog would “feel something” but not actual conscious pain, pretty much like when you touch something hot and remove your hand, … you don’t really feel pain, you just “feel something” that made you move your hand.

    This are not rare random guesses, Dogs and humans are rare excpetions, most organism deal with danger without feeling conscious pain, a plant would produce a poisonous substance if you try to “injure” it but the tree doesn’t really feel pain
     
  8. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    59,956
    Ratings:
    +40,010
    Religion:
    Atheist
    What makes you think that only humans suffer. Maybe you are lucky and all of your cats were run over by semis, but most people know that if they keep pets for the pet's lifetime that it will often suffer as it gets very old.

    And suffering has nothing to do with "sinning" or breaking any laws so your jails question is rather pointless.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  9. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2018
    Messages:
    6,428
    Ratings:
    +519
    Religion:
    christian
    Ok I will simply add this to the list of questions that you refuse to answer
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  10. BrightShadow

    BrightShadow Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2021
    Messages:
    207
    Ratings:
    +44
    Religion:
    non
    Of course if you think you were born sinless then nothing will make sense.
    I don't believe anybody is born sinless. I am not talking about Adam and Eve eating fruit!
    I believe we all did something and that is why we are sent in our physical form and not in our soul form.
    By the way, I believe animal suffering is all part of the package. Our car suffers when it hits a pothole. One day when car can talk it will say "ouch"! We still make cars and we will repair and drive. God can repair animals too! IMO... No permanent damage!;)
     
  11. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2010
    Messages:
    4,918
    Ratings:
    +3,245
    Religion:
    None
    That is still pain. Pain itself isn't conscious and we certainly have instinctive reactions to it but we are also consciously aware of the pain and so can also take conscious actions in relation to it too.

    If I touch the unexpectedly hot pan, I will indeed instinctively pull my hand back, but I'll generally understand why I did that and so can also consciously work out why the pan is hot when it shouldn't be (maybe I left the burner on by mistake, maybe it's one of those stupid pans with heat-conductive handles, maybe the kitchen is on fire but I couldn't smell the smoke because of COVID ;) ) and choose to do something about it.

    I agree, but those "rare" exceptions include most mammals, birds and reptiles. And the fact remains that the "reason" for a lot of suffering is as a consequence of those pain reactions, which is an answer to the problem raised in the OP.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2017
    Messages:
    8,807
    Ratings:
    +11,316
    Religion:
    None
    Suffering, which is not a mechanism, is not always useless (the mechanism is the nervous system and its nociceptors, for example). People unable to feel pain die younger. Whatever promotes reproduction is selected for, and this includes surviving to reproductive age. Organisms that suffer pain to let them know that the surface they are walking on will cause serious tissue damage will out-survive and out-reproduce those that cannot.

    Your argument has been refuted, by which I mean that I have come to a conclusion that makes yours wrong if mine is correct (vice versa - if you are correct, I cannot be). If you think that my counter-argument is flawed, please advise where and how. What specific statement do you say is incorrect? If none, then can we agree that this mater has been resolved? Please address this paragraph. Am I correct? Have I convinced you that you were wrong? If not, which part, and why. Thank you in advance.

    Incidentally, it's been discovered that morning sickness in early pregnancy is a protective evolutionary adaptation, another example of beneficial (not useless) suffering : Morning sickness is pregnancy 'wellness insurance,' says Cornell professor | Cornell Chronicle Doesn't this alone refute your argument?

    That's incorrect. I just explained how some suffering is selected for by nature.

    Atheism solves a whole host of problems for Abrahamic theists, like this one - why there is gratuitous suffering, the kind that doesn't benefit life? The answer is easy and obvious. We have the ability to suffer because it promotes survival in a variety of settings, but because nature is blind, sometimes she throws us a curve, something goes wrong, and it hurts. The believer is scratching his head looking for answers to problems that aren't problems outside of religion. He's trying to explain why his creation story doesn't resemble the science, or why there are contradictions in his scripture, and he has to do some unconvincing verbal gymnastics, whereas for the atheist, the answers are easy. The creation myth and the contradicting scriptures were written by fallible men, not a deity.

    This is actually valuable evidence that the Abrahamic theist is incorrect. One can guess that evolution didn't occur (it did), but if he does, because he guessed wrong, he will be confronted with conflicting evidence forever. Had he guessed the other way, he would never deal with any contradictory evidence. This should be meaningful. And this describes the plight of the theists well. All of these theistic problems disappear by going from belief to unbelief.

    Think about a friend who is a liar, but you don't know that yet. You assume he's honest. Then all sorts of irregularities arise, followed by a hundred just-so explanations, each of which might be truthful, but all together, it's becoming harder to accept all of these answers. Eventually, you realize that you were wrong, and suddenly, all the mysteries disappear.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  13. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    66,124
    Ratings:
    +24,632
    Religion:
    None (atheist)
    Hoo boy. I have too little patience today to go through all the wrong-headed thinking here point by point.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  14. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2018
    Messages:
    6,428
    Ratings:
    +519
    Religion:
    christian
    Agree that is a big issue
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2013
    Messages:
    23,926
    Ratings:
    +17,411
    Religion:
    atheist
    How Dogs Feel Pain and 30 Signs of Pain in Dogs - PetHelpful

    This whole thread confuses the hell out of me.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  16. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2018
    Messages:
    6,428
    Ratings:
    +519
    Religion:
    christian
    You dont seem to understand the issue.

    I am making a distinction between conscious pain and uncurious pain (simple reacting)………. The point that I made is that uncurious pain is enough to get all the selective benefits that you mentioned,

    For example a tree would produce corrosive chemicals is someone is trying to “harm it” trees already have this ability….. trees don’t feel conscious pain, they simply react such that such chemicals are liberated to avoid “harm”, if trees evolve an extra layer of complexity and develop the ability of feeling conscious pain that wouldn’t represent an extra advantage to the tree………the tree would be equally likely to survive and reproduce with or without the conscious pain. So why would this extra layer of complexity evovle and be selected by natural selection if it doesnt add any advantage?
     
  17. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    59,956
    Ratings:
    +40,010
    Religion:
    Atheist
    That is right, I will not answer foolish or poorly framed questions. Don't blame others all of the time. There is a reason that you are usually on "corrections only" mode.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  18. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    59,956
    Ratings:
    +40,010
    Religion:
    Atheist

    It is a good thing that you are not talking about mythical events that never happened. I was born sinless. In fact I may have never sinned. Now it appears that you are trying to claim that your God is immoral again by giving us pains without telling us why.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2018
    Messages:
    6,428
    Ratings:
    +519
    Religion:
    christian
    that is not true

    For years I´ve been asking you to quote a single factual mistake made by me, and you have been unable to accomplish that task………… so you are not in “correction mode” you are in “I will claim that you are wrong without justification “ mode
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  20. idea

    idea Question Everything

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2008
    Messages:
    6,935
    Ratings:
    +1,224
    Religion:
    spiritual, not religious
    Nature happens in cycles. Spring, winter, birth, death. When it is time to slow down and become more careful in everything, nature slows us down. Survival happens through new life replacing the older models, just how it works.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
Loading...