1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured The “naturalist” Problem of Suffering

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by leroy, Jul 28, 2022.

  1. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2013
    Messages:
    14,309
    Ratings:
    +17,534
    Religion:
    None.
    That's pretty dismal. Not much spiritual revelation there.
     
  2. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2009
    Messages:
    47,544
    Ratings:
    +21,398
    Religion:
    Philosophical Buddhism
    What's the most mysterious is there are people saying pain and suffering isn't real and it's just chemicals and electricity.

    For something not real, the intensity and unbearability is impossible to ignore when it occurs.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  3. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2013
    Messages:
    14,309
    Ratings:
    +17,534
    Religion:
    None.
    Most organisms wouldn't have felt any pain? How do you know that? Ever stepped on your cat's tail?
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  4. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    23,521
    Ratings:
    +12,315
    Religion:
    None
    It's a package deal.
    If a person doesn t like the deal they can leave.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  5. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2009
    Messages:
    47,544
    Ratings:
    +21,398
    Religion:
    Philosophical Buddhism
    Not really. It's the understanding itself that helps soften the blow whenever it flares up.

    It's like that proverbial red hot ball of iron in your throat that can never be dislodged or removed.
     
  6. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    23,521
    Ratings:
    +12,315
    Religion:
    None
    Who sez chemistry n electricity isn't real?
     
  7. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2013
    Messages:
    14,309
    Ratings:
    +17,534
    Religion:
    None.
    Absolutely, wrong!

    Atheists do not think of "nature" as being intelligent, directed, or anything other than just "the way things are." That's all. "The way things are."

    It doesn't aim anywhere (evolution has no goal in mind). It doesn't know anything (things work, things don't, things live, things die, move on).

    Your problem is that you cannot free yourself from the 100% unsupported notion that there is something (some "cause" guided by some "reason") that makes things happen. That's wrong. If you could jettison that silly idea, you'd have no trouble at all seeing why your whole premise is nonsense.
     
    • Winner Winner x 4
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2009
    Messages:
    47,544
    Ratings:
    +21,398
    Religion:
    Philosophical Buddhism
    The argument that all sensations are neurological based and generated within the brain upon receiving the signals and is just a mental phenomenon with substance.
     
  9. crossfire

    crossfire Antinomian feminist heretic freak ☿
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Messages:
    13,534
    Ratings:
    +6,406
    Religion:
    ☿ Mercuræn Mahayana Buddhist & Pastafarian
    Sexual reproduction developed as a response to stress. (suffering) In species that have both asexual and sexual reproduction, asexual reproduction is favored during good times (non stress,) whereas sexual reproduction is resorted to during bad times (under stress.)
     
  10. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Messages:
    25,262
    Ratings:
    +32,020
    Religion:
    Non-theist
    It *is* real. AND it is also chemicals and electricity. Remember that chemicals and electricity are real. Also remember that our consciousness is based on those same chemicals and electrical phenomena.

    Part of being 'unbearable' is our attitude towards it, though. if we see the pain as a necessary step in our development, then it becomes more tolerable. if we see it as unnecessary, it becomes unbearable. As with everything else, our expectations color our perception.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  11. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Messages:
    25,262
    Ratings:
    +32,020
    Religion:
    Non-theist

    And how does that imply that the sensations are not real? Yes, they are generated in the brain (you won't feel pain if no pain signal gets to the brain) and yes they are neurologically based. But those sensations, as induced by the neural activity, are just as real as temperature or pressure (which are also collective properties).
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Useful Useful x 1
  12. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    17,169
    Ratings:
    +10,351
    Religion:
    Sanathana Dharma [The Eternal Religion]
    Strange

    I see no problem at all with suffering (as a Theist), it's a perfect fit in God's Creation
     
  13. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    5,552
    Ratings:
    +4,284
    Religion:
    atheist
    I read it and the fact that atheists can't explain suffering isn't a problem in the least. And it's only a problem for theists who claim that their god is all knowing, all powerful, and all loving. Only those who claim that their god is all powerful, all knowing, and all loving have an obligation to explain why their god allows suffering.

    Why would you think otherwise?
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Winner Winner x 1
  14. Nakosis

    Nakosis Time Efficient Lollygagger
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2011
    Messages:
    21,980
    Ratings:
    +11,813
    Religion:
    Scientism
    Ok, but if we are talking physical pain, pain seems a useful mechanism as it makes us aware of a physical problem with the body. So we know is physically happening to the body that normally shouldn't be.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Clara Tea

    Clara Tea Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2020
    Messages:
    4,468
    Ratings:
    +1,732
    RE: EXPLAIN PAIN: Atheists don't believe in God, so don't have to explain anything. When one commits to a belief, they "could" try to explain it (or not).
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  16. sayak83

    sayak83 Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2012
    Messages:
    10,899
    Ratings:
    +11,510
    Religion:
    Pluralist Hindu
    Actually this the sub-issue within a much bigger problem.

    Why would evolutionary mechanism lead to development of beings that have first person experiential awareness fields? What does having inner subjective experiences add to the processing of external stimuli through the usual neuro-chemical pathways of the brain and the nervous system?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Clara Tea

    Clara Tea Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2020
    Messages:
    4,468
    Ratings:
    +1,732
    Pain alerts us to problems. Yet, some suffer with incurable cancer then die (with no hope). If there was a God, why make people suffer (physical and emotional pain, and emotionally pained loved ones)?

    Jesus didn't want to die. On the cross Jesus asked God "why hath thou foresaken me?" So, it was God who decided to allow Romans to kill Jesus. God could have allowed Jesus to use his amazing powers to blind his attackers (or vaporize them off of the earth). Yet, God did want Jesus to die, and did want Jesus to suffer.

    Could it be that God wanted to teach Jesus about the human condition, and the only real way to teach about pain and humiliation and hopelessness is to force Jesus to experience it.

    Why, then, does God force us to have pain, poop our pants, lay in our poop for a day, in the hospital, and deal with the inevitable slow death? Perhaps humans are supposed to learn pain to gain compassion for others?

    What good would an angel be who is not compassionate? Satan had been a perfect angel, but likely had no compassion at all. Perhaps God had learned his lesson with Satan to teach his other souls/angels, what pain is, and what others must be going through.

    Is pain on earth a forewarning of eternal pain of hell. Is that a warning of what is to come if we disobey God? Would we heed God if no one was in pain?
     
  18. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2013
    Messages:
    23,926
    Ratings:
    +17,411
    Religion:
    atheist
    'Spandrel' is a word I only knew as a construction term. Thanks for teaching me it's biological meaning!!
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  19. AlexanderG

    AlexanderG Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2021
    Messages:
    683
    Ratings:
    +1,424
    Religion:
    Atheist
    I reject your 2nd premise. Suffering has a clear evolutionary advantage, whether physical or emotional. It is a way to incentivize us to act in ways that minimize harm to our bodies or to slow down and heal, and minimize social anguish. This leads to greater health and greater group cooperation, which confers a survival advantage.

    Like many evolutionary traits, pain is a sloppy trait that doesn't always manifest perfectly. Chronic pain, anxiety disorders, neuropathy, and wasting illnesses are forms of suffering that manifest inappropriately or in a way that doesn't actually help us live better. However, the net effect of our capacity to feel pain is still positive, and that's all evolution cares about.

    This is all very, very easily explained by naturalism.

    Some other imperfect over-clocked traits include:
    1. Our intense evolutionary urge to find babies appealing bleeds over into other animal species that we find cute for no beneficial reason.
    2. Our hyperactive tendency to see agency in mindless processes was beneficial in avoiding predators, but bleeds over into thinking there are monsters under the bed, spirits in the trees, gods controlling the weather, etc.
    3. Our fight/flight response bleeds over into social situations, causing useless panic, sweating, trembling, stuttering during public performances.
     
    #39 AlexanderG, Jul 28, 2022
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2022
    • Like Like x 2
  20. idea

    idea Question Everything

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2008
    Messages:
    6,935
    Ratings:
    +1,224
    Religion:
    spiritual, not religious
    Exactly. Suffering is a survival mechanism - if you couldn't feel your hand burning, you wouldn't remove it from the stove.
     
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...