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Featured That Whole Homosexual--Sin Thing

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Skwim, May 14, 2019.

  1. Kangaroo Feathers

    Kangaroo Feathers Hardline moderate

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    +1
     
  2. Dan Mellis

    Dan Mellis Thorsredballs

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    Thats a poor conclusion. A dog hasn't the ability to assess the effect of chocolate on its wellbeing. We do have the ability to assess the effect of homosexuality on our wellbeing.

    Unless you mean the wellbeing of our soul. You'd have to prove we had a soul for that though, and I think thats the easiest point to assail when it comes to religion.

    Consciousness (the soul) is the result of neurons and chemicals in our brains. We know this because if we damage our brains, we can fundamentally change as a person. We can even develop 2 consciousnesses as a result of brain trauma - does that mean we have 2 souls?

    I'm more confident in the nonexistence of a soul than I am about the nonexistence of god.
     
  3. Dan Mellis

    Dan Mellis Thorsredballs

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    In which case, I apologise. I didn't intend to malign you.
     
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  4. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    So living as a homosexual precludes walking in a parade for equal rights and treatment? How thoughtful of you to demean their right to assembly.


    ?????


    ????? Gotta say, you're replies here aren't making much sense.


    In other words you're willing to lie on a test. Isn't lying verboten in the Bible? Sure it is.

    Leviticus 19:11
    11 “ ‘Do not steal. “ ‘Do not lie. “ ‘Do not deceive one another.

    Proverbs 12:22
    22 The LORD detests lying lips, but he delights in people who are trustworthy.​

    God must be very proud of you. :rolleyes:


    So what?


    Oh! So sex is for more than procreation after all. Nice to see you admit it. After all, I'd hate to see you upset with mom and dad for enjoying themselves after you'd gone to bed.


    Not to be disrespectful, but just how much education have you had? I only ask because if you dropped out of high school before graduation it would explain a lot here and I would be far more understanding of your replies.


    Thank you.


    Good! Now you have a better idea of whom you're dealing with, which is always helpful when engaging a stranger.

    .
     
  5. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

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    Wikipedia is a joke when it comes to any number of Biblical subjects. And FInkelstein is a liberal minimalist who has been refuted in the past for his late-dating errors.

    I'll stand by Genesis and the archaeological information I posted.
     
  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    As I said, if you are a Christian, sexual morality is not an option....it is a requirement. If your relationship with your mate is based on more important things than sex, your compatibility in those areas will set the scene for your sex life as well. Love conquers all.

    We note in the Bible that Joseph did not consummate his marriage to Mary until after she had given birth to Jesus. That shows great respect for God, for the child she was carrying, and for his wife.

    Self-control is a fruit of God's spirit, so those among my brotherhood wait until marriage, because sex is not a right to us, but a gift, not to be abused or stolen before its authorisation by scriptural marriage...something 'God has yoked together'.
     
  7. Left Coast

    Left Coast Active Member
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    But in your analogy our free will was already sunk from the moment God decided we would be brought into existence the way we are. He created us like dogs who want to eat chocolate, not just unwilling but unable to comprehend the cosmic consequences of our actions. And so, quite naturally, we are going to do what seems best to us with the information we can comprehend.
     
  8. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    I thought that it was better to get married, Being with the one that one loves ends temptation. Surely you are not against marriage.
     
  9. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Then it must be some kind of supernatural domain of god's (for which he sets the rules), because currently here on Earth homosexual sex is not necessarily more harmful than heterosexual sex.

    .
     
  10. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Genesis? Seriously? That is a book of myths. No wonder you get so much wrong.
     
  11. Dan Mellis

    Dan Mellis Thorsredballs

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    Free will doesnt come into play at all if we're talking god.I'll explain... do you believe these three premises?

    1: god is omniscient

    2: god is omnipotent

    3: god created us

    If so, then god created us knowing exactly what each of us would do. Not only that, he created us in such a way that we would do exactly what he knew we would do. So if we sin, he knew exactly how that would happen - and built this in when he made us. Then he decides to punish us for doing what he decided we would do?

    Of course, if god didnt exist then it would make much more sense and free will can have room to be debated.
     
  12. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Sadly those that believe 1,2 and 3 go into cognitive dissonance when logic tells them that there is not free will and that their good and evil actions are both due to God according to their own beliefs.
     
  13. Kangaroo Feathers

    Kangaroo Feathers Hardline moderate

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    I don't have to prove anything, the main thrust of my argument is that I take it on faith that God doesn't approve of homosexual activity, possibly for reasons incomprehensible to humans. If you disagree, that's fine, but insisting that humans nust be able to comprehend why something is negative is rather begging the question. We humans sure hold ourselves in high regard, and I appreciate the concept of unknowable truth is challenging to some, but there it is.

    Humans have a tendency to anthropomorphise God, you know, the old bearded guy in a robe. But that is only a model to make God more accessible to the average person. God in actuality is an unknowable, incomprehensible supreme being. Assuming his thoughts, desires or reasons are knowable to humans is essentially hubris. Part of being Christian is submission to God, that means trusting his reasons even if they're unclear, challenging as this is do the ego driven Western mind.

    Hey, if you don't believe in God, that's cool. I'm not telling you what to believe. But for those of us that do, "God knows us better than we know ourselves" is an article of faith. I'm sorry if that doesn't satisfy the purely deterministic expectations of the post enlightened modern mind, but here we are.
     
  14. Sky Rivers

    Sky Rivers Active Member

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    Thank you. :)
     
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  15. Sky Rivers

    Sky Rivers Active Member

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    Their right to peacefully assemble isn’t what I have an issue with. My issue is clothing choice, presence of minors, and a strange need to be proud of something they claim isn’t a choice. Then, I also have an issue with “***** hats” so...

    What’s difficult to understand?

    I don’t see how it’s lying to answer a question with memorized data when that’s what’s required of me. Do I assert the memorized data to be fact? I don’t. However, the test isn’t asking me my personal view on whether humans are animals, it’s necessitating I respond with what I was educated to memorize on the topic.

    Was this comment necessary?

    The typical mainstream education, ending at graduating high school.
     
  16. Kangaroo Feathers

    Kangaroo Feathers Hardline moderate

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    I'm not a Calvinist, sorry.

    God's omniscience and omnipotence while allowing free will has been long debated, and I'm not going to try to sumarise 2000 years of theological thought here, other than to say I accept that free will is a thing.

    FWIW, I don't believe God "punishes" us for sin, I believe sin inherently harms us, which is why God doesn't want us to do it.

    On the other hand, I am familiar with the deterministic arguments that free will is an illusion, that all human action is deterministic, that we are just ghosts in the machine, the Chinese Room paradox, and all that. Those are some pretty compelling arguments, IF we posit a purely deterministic universe, sure. However, for our purposes here, we're assuming the existence of God, and therefore allowing for faith based positions. If you want to claim there is no God, that's a valid position, however it rather renders the whole discussion about why God doesn't approve of homosexual activity moot. If God doesn't exist, then He doesn't approve or disapprove of anything.
     
  17. Sky Rivers

    Sky Rivers Active Member

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    If a man is struggling with homosexual temptation, involving a wife and possibly children seems counterintuitive. No?

    I’m not against marriage between a man and a woman, equally yoked.
     
  18. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    How does God speak to us? Through his written word. We have no other solid communication from God. So please show us where we will find authorisation for sexual activity before scriptural marriage? God's laws to Israel contained very detailed actions that were prohibited under penalty of death in many cases.

    I agree....But I would apply both words. Illicit means it is against the law. God's law was specific....no marriage, no sex.

    A look at the animal kingdom confirms that sex is for reproduction. The instinct for procreation is strong in most species. The mating, birth and nurturing of young is all programmed. They need no one to teach them what to do. This ensures that perpetuation of the species is guaranteed. But other species do not have any choice in the matter. As any breeder will tell you, nature will find a way.

    For humans, our procreation is tempered by rules....no other creatures have moral laws because no other creature has the capacity for considered choice in what they do. Instinct drives everything. They make no conscious moral choices.

    We have some instinctive behaviours....but we alone have laws governing how we use them. For humans, a family life for children with the balance of two sexes in parenting trains children for their own role as parents in the future. We have to be taught everything. We just have to hope that our teachers got it right, otherwise we set them up for failure......look at the state of family life today......it is a shambles.
     
    #218 Deeje, May 15, 2019
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  19. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    You seem to be the one that advocated for involving a wife and children in an earlier posts. Why not man and man equally yoked or woman and woman equally yoked? You do not need to marry a woman if that is what is bothering you.

    And remember, homosexuality is not a "temptation". It is an orientation. It appears that you are claiming that your God is an evil being.
     
  20. Kangaroo Feathers

    Kangaroo Feathers Hardline moderate

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    Meh, it's essentially a more complex version of the unstoppable force vs. Unmovable object paradox. There are ways around it, especially if one allows for ethereal mechanics.
     
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