That darned trinity.

[blü 2]

We are going in circles here...

It would help if you could take me step by step through the reason, in your view, that the church deems the Trinity doctrine a 'mystery in the true sense'.

1 Cor 14:38 "If any of your number thinks himself a true preacher and a spiritually-minded man, let him recognise that what I have written is by divine command! As for those who don’t know it, well, we may just leave them in ignorance.t" is the appropriate answer.

But on this particular occasion, at least on all the evidence so far, you don't appear to be speaking by divine command, nor understanding the actual Trinity doctrine better than I do. Hence the direct relevance of the question I ask above.

 

[Oeste]

God is also a god of lies:

Well, I was waiting for some of our anti-Trinitarian friends here to take Blü to task on this, but I forgot... When skeptics take axe to the Word of God, anti-Trinitarians stand ready to watch the attempted demolition from a distance.

It would help if you could take me step by step through the reason, in your view, that the church deems the Trinity doctrine a 'mystery in the true sense'.

See post # 100

But I'm really not sure why you pursue this line of reasoning. The important thing to consider is whether the Trinity doctrine is based on scripture. What someone might have said or meant 900 years ago has little bearing on this.

But on this particular occasion, at least on all the evidence so far, you don't appear to be speaking by divine command, nor understanding the actual Trinity doctrine better than I do. Hence the direct relevance of the question I ask above.

You're skeptical about God's word Blü, so of course you're going to be skeptical about anything based on that word. It's expected.

Jesus is 100% man and 100% God. Sometimes scripture will speak from the perspective as Jesus as man:

See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” (Luke 24:39)​

Sometimes as God:

"waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ," (Titus 2:13)​

and sometimes as both:

“Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.” Luke 18:19​

"For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily" Col 2:9​

 

[Kenny]

For me, the difference was the heart.

As an example, when people wanted to talk to me about Jesus I would retort "EVERYBODY, interprets it differently" or "With ALL the denominations, why should I subscribe to YOUR viewpoint".

Of course, I had never read the Bible because I wasn't interested. So many people have made up their minds and really aren't interested.

But when I wanted to learn, my statements ended up being more like questions with an open mind to the response. When they asked me "To you want to receive Jesus?" I said "NO". But it was more of a "You haven't given me enough information to convince me that what you are sharing is right. That pastor ended up saying something that I checked him off the list as "This guy doesn't know what he is talking about". But I kept searching.

When I hit a couple that opened the Bible, since now I was open, and spent 5 hours answering questions by opening and explaining... I eventually gave my life to God through the sacrifice of Jesus.

What was the difference? I was open, open to learn, open to acknowledge where I was wrong and open to change my thoughts.

Incidentally, when I use to say "Everybody interprets it differently", it was because I never read it. By and large, most of it is really black and white.

 

[blü 2]

Well, I was waiting for some of our anti-Trinitarian friends here to take Blü to task on this, but I forgot... When skeptics take axe to the Word of God, anti-Trinitarians stand ready to watch the attempted demolition from a distance.

I didn't "take axe to the Word of God". I simply quoted the "Word of God" to you. It says that God tells lies. If you missed that the first time, please read the quotes again (#98).

See post # 100

There you said, "I'm not aware of any church that claims the Trinity doesn't make sense. Are you referring to a Unitarian or Muslim church?"

No, I'm saying what I've said all along. The RCC and the Anglicans / Piscos both declare that the Trinity doctrine is a "mystery in the strict sense". A "mystery in the strict sense" has the quality that "it can neither be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation, nor cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed" (Oxford Dict. of the Christian Church). That is, they say it doesn't make sense, is incoherent.

You already know why I think they say that ─ namely 100% + another distinct 100% + another distinct 100% =300% = 3 Gods, while the doctrine says 100% + 100% + 100% = 100% = 1 God.

I'm asking you why you think those churches (and no doubt others that have a similar Trinity doctrine) have thought it necessary to say it's a 'mystery in the strict sense'.

That will clarify (at last) one part of our discussion.

But I'm really not sure why you pursue this line of reasoning. The important thing to consider is whether the Trinity doctrine is based on scripture. What someone might have said or meant 900 years ago has little bearing on this.

And in #35 and #46 you'll find repeated statements attributed to Jesus in direct speech that he is NOT God, but the servant and envoy of God, and that he has no powers of his own, only those that God (also called the Father) lets him have, and that he Jesus worships the Father as the only true god, and so on.

Plus the fact that nowhere in the NT is it said that the Holy Ghost is God.

You're skeptical about God's word Blü, so of course you're going to be skeptical about anything based on that word. It's expected.

This is the other part of our discussion.

My skepticism won't help you. The quotes in #35 and #46 won't help you. The absence of any claim by Jesus to be God won't help you.

The Trinity has no support from the NT and the Trinity doctrine has even less.

Sometimes as God:

"waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ," (Titus 2:13)​

First, modern scholarship holds 'The Letter of Paul to Titus' to be a pseudepigraph (a technical word meaning 'forgery').

Second, if we leave that aside, then we have Paul contradicting the numerous statements of Jesus. When Paul disagrees with Jesus, who's right? Who wins?

 

[Muffled]

if it was important we would know it...
faith = divine persuasion, given to men, we either receive it or not not...

I believe that is like the question if a tree falls in the woods but nobody hears it. I believe things exist whether we know about them or not.

 

[Muffled]

Yes, but that's not the point. You are not 100% body AND 100% soul AND 100% spirit ─ there isn't 300% of you, there's only 100% of you, the sum of body and soul and spirit.

Whereas the doctrine of the Trinity says that God is both one, and three 'persons', Yahweh, Jesus and the Holy Ghost, who are distinct from each other AND that each of these is 100% of God AND that this doesn't make sense and so has to be called a 'mystery in the strict sense'.
In Mark, the earliest gospel version ie the original story (at Mark 1:10), Jesus is simply an ordinary human until, at his baptism, Yahweh adopts him as his son, in the Jewish manner ─ not just Psalm 2:7, which Acts 13:33 specifically mentions, but also 2 Samuel 7:14 and Psalm 89:26-27. When the authors of Matthew and of Luke (the other two synoptics) took Mark's text and reworked and added to it, they brought in a virgin and a divine insemination (which are from Greek tradition).
That isn't a claim to be God, or the equal of God. It's perfectly consistent with Jesus' claim to be the agent of God, deriving any power he has from God.
A fair point. I should have said, 'uncontradicted by Jesus', not just 'uncontradicted'.

So which do you prefer, the word of Jesus or the word of Thomas? They can't both be right.
This distinguishes two characters, Jesus and God. It says (Philippians 2:6) ὃς ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα θεῷ ie that Jesus had 'the form of God' (morphē theou) but 'did not count equality with God (isa theō) a thing to be grasped (harpagmon)' ie realized equality with God was not possible. It never says Jesus is God or that Jesus and God are the same person.

No, relentlessly and totally contradicted by Jesus himself. Here's a longer list of things Jesus said by way of making it perfectly clear that he wasn't God:

Mark 2:10 “the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins”

Mark 12: 29 Jesus answered, “The first is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one;” ... 32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;

Matthew 20:23 “to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”

Luke 18:19 “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”

John 5:19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”

John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own authority; [...] I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”

John 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me”

John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”

John 10:29 “My Father [...] is greater than all”.

John 14:10 “The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”
​

Please show me where Jesus contradicted any of these statements.

And where anyone in the NT says the Holy Ghost is God, not just God's errand boy.

And please explain why there was no doctrine of the Trinity before the 4th century.

And why the doctrine of the Trinity is incoherent in the manner I mentioned and so has had to have been given the special excuse (by express church doctrine) that it's 'a mystery in the strict sense' and 'not contrary to reason but above reason' and similar nonsense.

I believe I have solved the mystery. The body is 100% human and God is 100% God. The body is 0% God and God is 0% the body.

 

[Kenny]

The Trinity has no support from the NT and the Trinity doctrine has even less.

And yet there are millions who disagree with you and give biblical support

 

[blü 2]

I believe I have solved the mystery. The body is 100% human and God is 100% God. The body is 0% God and God is 0% the body.

Your tagline is "Jesus in me" so I take it you agree Jesus isn't God,

 

[Trailblazer]

@ Deeje

I just noticed that I had saved this post in a Word document as I normally do with longer posts and I never answered it.

And then there is Jesus' own words in prayer to his Father....."This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ." (John 17:3)

So knowing God and his Christ are necessary.....but is knowledge of the holy spirit not necessary for everlasting life then? No mention of the third and supposedly equal member of the trinity here. Why do we only need to know God and Jesus to gain everlasting life?

There is no such “Person” as the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirt is the Bounty of God that God sent to Jesus, so you KNOW the Holy Spirit through knowing Jesus.

If the Father is the "only true God" and Jesus is the one he sent, then there are clearly two, not three entities who can be in separate places at the same time.

There are three entities but God and Jesus both share the third entity, the Holy Spirit. That is why Jesus said “I and my Father are one.” But right before that Jesus said “My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all” indicating that Jesus and God are two entities and that God is greater than Jesus. The Jews mistook what Jesus said and thought Jesus was claiming to BE God which is why they took up stones against Him.

John 10:29-31 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

So then Jesus made it clear that He was the Son of God, which means He cannot also BE God. As you know, the Christians later misconstrued the NT and came up with the doctrines of the Church at the Council of Nicaea and that has come to be accepted by the majority of Christians, who are Trinitarians.

Since Jesus prayed to his Father and said "let not my will, but yours be done", do we imagine one part of God is talking to another equal part of himself and telling that part of himself that his will should be done? What about the will of the holy spirit?
If they are all one and the same God, why would the will of the one be different to the will of the other(s)?

It is a Baha’i belief that the Will of God is identical with the Will of the Manifestation of God. We believe Jesus was a Manifestation of God so the Will of Jesus was identical withthe Will of God.

“The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself. This is the loftiest station to which a true believer in the unity of God can ever hope to attain. Blessed is the man that reacheth this station, and is of them that are steadfast in their belief.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 166-167

The Holy Spirit cannot have its own Will because it is NOT a Person, it is the Bounty of God that God sent to Jesus and then it emanated from Jesus. Then later the Holy Spirit reflected off Jesus onto the Apostles and it appeared in their reality.

Question.—What is the Holy Spirit?
Answer.—The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality. Moreover, entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits—that is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection.” Some Answered Questions, p. 108

In Matthew 24:36..."Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father." Again, does one part of God know things that the other part(s) do not?No holy spirit mentioned again. Count how many times the holy spirit is missing when Jesus and his Father are mentioned together.

The reason the Holy Spirit is not mentioned is because it is NOT a separate Person. The Holy Spirit is God’s Spirit that was given to Jesus and associated with Jesus.Then later the Trinitarians made it into a separate Person by misconstruing the Bible.

And Philippians 2:5-11 has been suggested as one that non-trinitarians might find difficult.....nothing could be further from the truth. If we read it carefully......
"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Philippians 2:5-11)

The Trinitarians I talk to say that “in the form of God” means Jesus IS God. They ignore this part -- did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Baha’u’llah was also accused of claiming to be God and here is how He responded:

“Certain ones among you have said: “He it is Who hath laid claim to be God.” By God! This is a gross calumny. I am but a servant of God Who hath believed in Him and in His signs, and in His Prophets and in His angels. My tongue, and My heart, and My inner and My outer being testify that there is no God but Him, that all others have been created by His behest, and been fashioned through the operation of His Will. There is none other God but Him, the Creator, the Raiser from the dead, the Quickener, the Slayer. I am He that telleth abroad the favors with which God hath, through His bounty, favored Me.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 228

Notice how similar that is to what Jesus said. That is because all Manifestations of God are Servants of God… They speak with authority as the Voice of God since they represent the Will of God.

"although He existed in the form of God". What is God's form? John 4:24 says "God is a spirit" so what form would Jesus have if he was existing in the same "form" as his Father before becoming a human on earth? He too would be a spirit. Angels are spirits as well. All exist in God's "form".

A couple of days ago a Trinitarian told me that the Son of God is of the same Spiritual substance as the Father. I told him that we do not know what Jesus was made of but it is true that Jesus was not made out of the same substance as ordinary human beings… However, that does not mean Jesus was made out of the same substance as the Father.

Of the true nature of a Manifestation of God such as Jesus we are told their bodies are human but their Soul was not conceived at conception like ours, but was preexistent in the spiritual world. In that preexistence their Souls were given the ability and capacity to receive direct revelations from God. That is what makes them different from ordinary humans. The Soul of Jesus came down from heaven even though His body was born of Mary and conceived by the Holy Spirit. Baha’is believe in the Virgin Birth and that it is a mystery of God.

 

[Deeje]

I just noticed that I had saved this post in a Word document as I normally do with longer posts and I never answered it.

You do realize that I was agreeing with you in response to your post #46?

You posted that like a rebuttal......?

 

[Kenny]

Your tagline is "Jesus in me" so I take it you agree Jesus isn't God,

Actually, that makes Jesus God since only God can be in so many people at the same time.

 

[Kenny]

There is no such “Person” as the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirt is the Bounty of God that God sent to Jesus, so you KNOW the Holy Spirit through knowing Jesus.

[URL='https://www.biblestudytools.com/luke/12-12.html']Luke 12:[/URL]12 for the "bounty" will teach you at that time what you should say.”
Hmmm.... that doesn't seem to fit there

John 14: 26 But the Advocate, the Bounty, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Nope... doesn't seem to fit there either.

Acts 5:3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Bounty and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land?

Round peg, square hole on that one

Acts 7: 51 “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Bounty!

Have to really push to give that any meaning.

Acts 13:2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Bounty said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

There's a mutiny on that Bounty.

I think you will have to come up with a different interpretation. :D

 

[blü 2]

Actually, that makes Jesus God since only God can be in so many people at the same time.

Well, as Jesus himself says, "the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing," so self-evidently the Father is setting the example.

 

[Kenny]

Well, as Jesus himself says, "the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing," so self-evidently the Father is setting the example.

Yes... now, if your body will just get in line with what your spirit is telling you to do. It seems like, in man's case, his body does things of his own accord in violation with his spirit

 

[metis]

And this is why it's called "the mystery of the Trinity" in Catholicism.

 

[blü 2]

Yes... now, if your body will just get in line with what your spirit is telling you to do. It seems like, in man's case, his body does things of his own accord in violation with his spirit

My spirit has generally been rum, though I also pay attention to whiskies these days ─ the world is an amazing place. But violations of the spirit indeed occur ─ slivovitz is an example.

 

[Kenny]

My spirit has generally been rum, though I also pay attention to whiskies these days ─ the world is an amazing place. But violations of the spirit indeed occur ─ slivovitz is an example.

enjoyed that one.

 

[Trailblazer]

[URL='https://www.biblestudytools.com/luke/12-12.html']Luke 12:[/URL]12 for the "bounty" will teach you at that time what you should say.”
Hmmm.... that doesn't seem to fit there

John 14: 26 But the Advocate, the Bounty, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Nope... doesn't seem to fit there either.

Acts 5:3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Bounty and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land?

Round peg, square hole on that one

Acts 7: 51 “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Bounty!

Have to really push to give that any meaning.

Acts 13:2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Bounty said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

There's a mutiny on that Bounty.

I think you will have to come up with a different interpretation. :D

You cannot just plug in a word like “bounty”into a verse and expect the verse to make sense.

Intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, come about as a result of the Bounty of God which is the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit does not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, into a human body, but rather it has a direct connection to the human mind.

The Holy Spirit is not a Person because it cannot talk. However, the Holy Spirit can be sent to a person, a man who can talk and write. The Comforter and the Spirit of truth in the following verses refer to a man, a man Jesus sent from the Father.

John 14:16-17, John 14:26; John 15:26; John 16:7, John 16:12-14

That man was called Baha’u’llah and He was the return of the Christ Spirit that Jesus promised to send from the Father. He did the following things:

He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

He shall testify of me:

He shall bear witness concerning me;

He will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

 

[Trailblazer]

You do realize that I was agreeing with you in response to your post #46?

You posted that like a rebuttal......?

Yes, I knew you agreed with me. However, you had some questions in that post. In retrospect, I guess those were not really questions, but rather statements in order to make your points.

But regardless of that, the Holy Spirit is such an important subject that I felt a need to elaborate on what it is and why it is not a Person.

 

[Oeste]

I didn't "take axe to the Word of God".

Of course you did. You're a skeptic and that's what skeptics do best. Here it is again:

God is also a god of lies:

I simply quoted the "Word of God" to you.

If you can point to your bible and tell us where God pronounce "God is also a god of lies" you will have proven your point.

It says that God tells lies. If you missed that the first time, please read the quotes again (#98).

I read the quotes. None of them tell me He a "God of lies". Only blü tells me that.

Why would you confuse your quotes with God's?

No, I'm saying what I've said all along. The RCC and the Anglicans / Piscos both declare that the Trinity doctrine is a "mystery in the strict sense". A "mystery in the strict sense" has the quality that "it can neither be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation, nor cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed" (Oxford Dict. of the Christian Church). That is, they say it doesn't make sense, is incoherent.

And as stated in post 100, the Christian God is a mystery to us, the Trinity doctrine never attempts to take the "mystery" out of God, the doctrine is an apprehension, not comprehension of God, and if you really, really want a God you understand w/out all the mystery, go to the pagans. They have plenty of Gods in their own image and their perfectly willing to explain them all.

This is the other part of our discussion.

My skepticism won't help you. The quotes in #35 and #46 won't help you. The absence of any claim by Jesus to be God won't help you.

The Trinity has no support from the NT and the Trinity doctrine has even less.

As I stated before, "proof texts" won't help you and it is you who must climb the hill.

I can cut and pasted quite a few verses in support of the Trinity doctrine, and as far as those quotes you claim don't support it, all I see are quotes that do.

The doctrine is accepted blü. It was argued, debated, sliced and diced a while ago. It came out unscathed leaving its detractors with nothing but to claim that apostasy enveloped the entire body of Christ, something scripture tells us would never happen.

Yes we were warned apostasy would come, but we were never told it would envelop the church. The body of Christ has never "gone rogue".

"waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ," (Titus 2:13)

First, modern scholarship holds 'The Letter of Paul to Titus' to be a pseudepigraph (a technical word meaning 'forgery').

Well if that's not taking an axe to scripture, I don't know what is.

But again, I see our anti-Trinitarian, "true defenders of the faith" remain silent, either watching from the sidelines or hoping to get their chance to join in on some demolition.

I just don't understand why they think they'll be any more successful now than they were before. It's a "mystery in the strict sense" to me.

Second, if we leave that aside, then we have Paul contradicting the numerous statements of Jesus. When Paul disagrees with Jesus, who's right? Who wins?

Are you referring to Paul (Saul) before his conversion?