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Featured That darned trinity.

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Jeremiah Ames, Jan 30, 2018.

  1. Srivijaya

    Srivijaya Active Member

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    Big bone of contention in early Eastern Christianity:
    Monophysitism - Wikipedia
     
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  2. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    First, words attributed directly to Jesus in all four gospels have him expressly denying that he is God, and expressly asserting that he is the agent of god, and derives all power that he has from God. I'm not sure what you mean by 'no prooftexting' but I set out some of these texts >here<.

    And not once do words attributed to him have him claiming to be God.

    So while everyone is free to think what they like about religion, those who say they rely on Jesus' words would (if consistent) be unable to agree with the Trinity doctrine.

    Second, the Trinity doctrine is incoherent anyway. Both the RCC and the Anglicans / Piscos (and, I trust, all thoughtful Trinitarian denominations) acknowledge this by calling the Trinity notion 'a mystery in the strict sense'. They add that such a mystery 'is not against reason but above reason', but that's simply meaningless nonsense ─ either a thing is reasonable or it's not, and no one has proposed an objective test that could distinguish things 'against reason' from things 'above reason' (theological convenience being notoriously subjective).

    The old problem of wanting to elevate Jesus to God status was met with Jewish criticism that Christians were polytheists like the pagans, and in the 4th century the Trinitarian solution took firmer shape: God is one god but three persons. BUT at the same time, Yahweh is 100% of God, Jesus is 100% of God, and the Holy Ghost is 100% of God.

    A moment's thought says you can't have it both ways. EITHER Yahweh, Jesus and the HG are each 33.3% of God, OR Yahweh, Jesus and HG are each 100% of God, giving a total of 300%, that is, three gods. Simple as that.
     
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  3. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    Is it our knowledge and logic that can sort this out?

    I can give another point of view based on another divine given logic.

    We can use the sun as a metephor to give that logic.

    The Essence of the Sun is not known to us, we can not look at it without a filter.

    The suns life giving rays are always omitted by the sun.

    The rays give the attributes neccessary for life.

    We now have the 3 Aspect

    God - Sun
    Holy Spirit - Rays of Attributes
    Messenger - Filter and giver of the Attributes

    Thus all we need to know now is that Gods Messengers are born into each age, that God chooses to give His Message.

    We can also now know how Christ is the first and the Last, each Messenger is born of the Holy Spirit. The Physical body on earth is the Filter and giver of all the Attributes.

    It also becomes the Cloud that blinds our vision to each subsequent Messenger.

    Regards Tony
     
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  4. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    There must be some kind of way outta here
    Said the joker to the thief
    There's too much confusion
    I can't get no relief
    Business men, they drink my wine
    Plowman dig my earth
    None were level on the mind
    Nobody up at his word
    Hey, hey
    No reason to get excited
    The thief he kindly spoke
    There are many here among us
    Who feel that life is but a joke
    But, uh, but you and I, we've been through that
    And this is not our fate
    So let us stop talkin' falsely now
    The hour's getting late, hey
    All along the watchtower
    Princes kept the view
    While all the women came and went
    Barefoot servants, too
    Outside in the cold distance
    A wildcat did growl
    Two riders were approaching
    And the wind began to howl

    Well with good logic and reason theologically I would have to say the joker the Thief and the wildcat are Singular. I know that's been Christian for thousands of years. Now we also have some that would insist that the Thief is jesus and others the joker jesus. But the text doesn't say that. And are the two riders the joker and the Thief? Some hold it to be true and others insist no absolutely not.... All good reasoning here scientific.
     
  5. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    Whether or not your logic is sound, I don't think is the point. If God is triune in Nature, I think it would be something beyond human logic. I don't think an understanding of the Trinity or even acceptance of the doctrine is necessary for salvation, at least it wasn't for me. I was very adamantly opposed to the Trinity because I had been involved in a couple of very anti-trinitarian religions and I thought the Trinity just didn't make sense. One Sunday I visited a non-denominational Christian church. I specifically remember thinking immediately afterwards that the sermon was pretty good and the people were friendly...but how could they or anyone believe in the Trinity. My thoughts were on this subject because one of the songs sung was Holy, Holy, Holy with the words...God in three Persons Blessed Trinity! Well two weeks later, I was saved because I realized I needed Jesus as My Savior. My born again experience was dramatic, at home, not a church and immediately the Trinity did make perfect sense to me and my understanding of the triune nature of God was clear. I knew it was true and not only that, I saw it throughout the scriptures from then on.
     
    #25 InChrist, Jan 31, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
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  6. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    Of course, I disagree.

    If man is a spirit, has a soul and lives in a body... do I have three people?

    In the beginning was the word, the word was with God and the word was God. How much clearer does one need it?
     
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  7. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Do you think that Matthew's Jesus on the cross was actually saying, Me, me, why have I forsaken me?

    And do you think a man is 100% spirit AND 100% soul AND 100% body, keeping the Trinitarian analogy? Or do you think a man is simply the sum of his soul and spirit and body?
    Luke 18:19 “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone."
    John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”
    John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

    That (and a lot more) seems not only very clear, but uncontradicted.
     
    #27 blü 2, Feb 1, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
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  8. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    Do you think that when I say to my body "Body, you get up right now" I am really saying "Me, me"?

    My body is 100% me and my spirit is 100% me and my soul is 100% me.

    But of course, IF you don't want to consider and decide to ignore what happened when The Word was made flesh.

    John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
    John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
    Phil 2:
    5 You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had.
    6 Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.
    7 Instead, he gave up his divine privileges ; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form,
    8 he humbled himself in obedience to God and died a criminal’s death on a cross.

    and so much more but uncontradicted.
     
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  9. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    1. I believe your logic is sound based on how you view the premise.
    2. I believe it is clear enough for me and I am no genius but I do have the Holy Spirit to help my understanding.
     
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  10. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe the art of proof texting is searching for scripture which supports one's view.
     
  11. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe God is not neuter and He certainly has what are considered personal characteristics.

    I believe my body is an it but it is still part of my person.

    I believe that is an attempt at proof texting but what is good for one poster should be good for another.
     
  12. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe God has a great deal of emphasis on it since it is considered by Him as essential.

    I believe the word is that faith is the substance of things hoped for.
     
  13. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    Good point Muffled.

    I recall knocking on my friend's door. He asked "Who is it?

    I said "It's me."

    Neither he nor I were implying that I had been neutered. That's something one would have to read into, rather than out of our conversation.
     
  14. socharlie

    socharlie Active Member

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    if it was important we would know it...
    faith = divine persuasion, given to men, we either receive it or not not...
     
  15. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Yes, but that's not the point. You are not 100% body AND 100% soul AND 100% spirit ─ there isn't 300% of you, there's only 100% of you, the sum of body and soul and spirit.

    Whereas the doctrine of the Trinity says that God is both one, and three 'persons', Yahweh, Jesus and the Holy Ghost, who are distinct from each other AND that each of these is 100% of God AND that this doesn't make sense and so has to be called a 'mystery in the strict sense'.
    In Mark, the earliest gospel version ie the original story (at Mark 1:10), Jesus is simply an ordinary human until, at his baptism, Yahweh adopts him as his son, in the Jewish manner ─ not just Psalm 2:7, which Acts 13:33 specifically mentions, but also 2 Samuel 7:14 and Psalm 89:26-27. When the authors of Matthew and of Luke (the other two synoptics) took Mark's text and reworked and added to it, they brought in a virgin and a divine insemination (which are from Greek tradition).
    That isn't a claim to be God, or the equal of God. It's perfectly consistent with Jesus' claim to be the agent of God, deriving any power he has from God.
    A fair point. I should have said, 'uncontradicted by Jesus', not just 'uncontradicted'.

    So which do you prefer, the word of Jesus or the word of Thomas? They can't both be right.
    This distinguishes two characters, Jesus and God. It says (Philippians 2:6) ὃς ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα θεῷ ie that Jesus had 'the form of God' (morphē theou) but 'did not count equality with God (isa theō) a thing to be grasped (harpagmon)' ie realized equality with God was not possible. It never says Jesus is God or that Jesus and God are the same person.
    No, relentlessly and totally contradicted by Jesus himself. Here's a longer list of things Jesus said by way of making it perfectly clear that he wasn't God:

    Mark 2:10 “the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins”

    Mark 12: 29 Jesus answered, “The first is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one;” ... 32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;

    Matthew 20:23 “to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

    Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”

    Luke 18:19 “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”

    John 5:19the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”

    John 5:30I can do nothing on my own authority; [...] I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”

    John 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me

    John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”

    John 10:29My Father [...] is greater than all”.

    John 14:10 “The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”

    John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

    John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”
    Please show me where Jesus contradicted any of these statements.

    And where anyone in the NT says the Holy Ghost is God, not just God's errand boy.

    And please explain why there was no doctrine of the Trinity before the 4th century.

    And why the doctrine of the Trinity is incoherent in the manner I mentioned and so has had to have been given the special excuse (by express church doctrine) that it's 'a mystery in the strict sense' and 'not contrary to reason but above reason' and similar nonsense.
     
    #35 blü 2, Feb 1, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
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  16. Jeremiah Ames

    Jeremiah Ames Well-Known Member

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    Freeing the mind allows one to see more than black marks on a white background.
     
  17. columbus

    columbus yawn <ignore> yawn

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    No.
    Not at all. Why would you think that?
    Tom
     
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  18. Jeremiah Ames

    Jeremiah Ames Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for sharing your ideas. Always a pleasure to hear from you.
    I’ll share my thinking.
    The Lord (Jesus) was a human upon conception. This human had a soul which was God, at conception. The human body of the Lord died. Obviously, His divine soul did not. He did resurrect Himself. John 16:28 I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.
    Also John 6:62. John 7:33. John 16:5. John 17:11.
    The Father was greater than the Son, in the sense that the Son (while on earth) took on a human body, brain, mouth etc. This human body, brain, mouth etc. by necessity had to serve the will of God. That is how the Lord (human) glorified God while being fully God internally (spirit). The Lord was never less than God, in their divinity, since they are synonymous.
    Philippians 2:5-6.
    You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had.
    Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God
    as something to cling to.

    Just my thoughts.
     
  19. Jeremiah Ames

    Jeremiah Ames Well-Known Member

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    Thank you Tony.
     
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  20. Jeremiah Ames

    Jeremiah Ames Well-Known Member

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    You obviously failed to read my post, again.

    Here’s something I found online.


    About God: There is one God, who has revealed Himself as our Father, in His Son Jesus Christ, and as the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is God manifested in flesh. He is both God and man. (Deuteronomy 6:4; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 2:9; I Timothy 3:1

    This is from a Oneness Pentacostal church website. I may not agree with some of their ideas, but at least they know God.
     
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