1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Thanksgiving - Who Do You Thank?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Sir Joseph, Nov 19, 2022.

  1. Ashoka

    Ashoka Aum Namah Shivaya

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2012
    Messages:
    1,758
    Ratings:
    +2,247
    Religion:
    Shaivism
    I'm American myself, and I don't celebrate either.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  2. Sand Dancer

    Sand Dancer Crazy Cat Lady

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2013
    Messages:
    6,881
    Ratings:
    +4,535
    Religion:
    Agnostic Buddhist
    Those who planted, harvested, packaged the food we eat.
     
  3. wellwisher

    wellwisher Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,835
    Ratings:
    +617
    Religion:
    Catholic
    How is that possible, when most of the original settlers came from the Christian Countries of Europe; England, France, Spain, Germany, Dutch, Italians, Irish, etc. Later, the Eastern Europeans would come; Poland, Russia, etc. which were also Christians. Religion was strong up into the 1960's and before that.

    If you recall the Pilgrims, from England, who settled in Jamestown and Plymouth, came to America for religious freedom. Pilgrim is a word connected to religious people who migrate to special places for them to worship. The Pilgrims are associated with the foundation. The Pilgrims were the founding fathers of the founding fathers.

    The Catholic Church formed about 400AD based on a merger of Christianity with Rome; official religion. This union would form the Holy Roman Empire centered in Rome; Vatican.

    Rome, at the time of the merger, had a large empire in Europe and these people were converted to Christians. The original Holy Roman Empire, lasted about 1000 years until the 1400's; Age of Exploration. There was split in the Church via the Protestant Movement in Germany; Martin Luther and the Protestant Church. This began a trend of the once unified Catholic Church, dividing into smaller regional Christian Churches; Church of England. Religious freedom part of the American since it was to way to allow diversity of worship to the one Christian God; Jesus, who was above them all. With Europeans from all places coming to America, from Christian countries but not all Catholic, faith in the spirit required we all get along and believe as you wish.

    The original Thanksgiving was an interesting story. The Pilgrim originally set up a Community Charter that was similar to Socialism. Everyone would work and pool their resources, which would then be shared. The problem was not everyone wanted to work but everyone expected to eat. The young men in particular wanted to enjoy the pleasant summers near Cape Cod exploring. When fall came, the colony was not prepared for winter and many of the older members died.

    The next Spring, they decided to try a different way approach based on a free market approach, where one could keep any extra resources they acquire and sell trade it for equal value. That summer the young men worked harder and created a surplus and profit. In the Fall, they had a feast to give thanks for their bounty.

    The Spirit of God had given them a sign and they took it. Religious freedom also allows for modification of dogma to meet needs. It is not just one way or the highway. This began the story of rugged American individualism, with a spirit of being all of the same Christian family; human rights.

    Having faith in something bigger than yourself, allows enough control over the ego, to where you can live within a creative chaos and be happy; freedom of expression of free people. The Atheists, who also were a spinoff from the division of the Catholic Church, lost that faith and cannot control the ego so division occurs.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    42,674
    Ratings:
    +17,423
    Religion:
    Judaism
    I suspect that the fault lies in your interpretation rather than her intent.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Left Coast

    Left Coast The Fabulous
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2019
    Messages:
    8,999
    Ratings:
    +14,955
    Religion:
    It's Complicated
    ***MOVED TO RELIGIOUS DEBATES***
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
  6. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    219,433
    Ratings:
    +85,125
    Religion:
    Atheist
    I thank no one.
    The day is about eating turkey.
    I'll compliment the cook though.
     
    #26 Revoltingest, Nov 20, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2022
    • Like Like x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  7. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2013
    Messages:
    13,228
    Ratings:
    +9,103
    Religion:
    Love, Light, and Life
    The answer is quite simple. They were not the ones who created the US Constitution. They were the settlers. Not the founding fathers of the nation. Those men were Enlightenment thinkers. They were Deists, not Puritans. And while some had the Christian faith as their personal believe, the nation was not established by them to be a Christian nation. There is a major difference between those.

    They believed everyone should have the right to practice whatever form of religion they wanted to. Unlike the Christians seeking political power today. They want to turn America into a Christian only nation. Something the founding fathers of this nation found hard to protect against happening.

    And their father's father's father's were at one point worshippers of Thor and Odin. So what? The U.S. Constitution is not a Christian charter. America was not ever intended to be a Christian Nation. It was a nation that protected religious freedom for any strain of Christianity, or whatever form of God any citizen choose to worship.

    You do understand the difference here? Do you think groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses would be allowed to exist here if this was a Christian Nation? Would you want the government to decide who was Christian or not?

    This is the dream of the Christian Nationalists in America. To turn America into a Christian nation, as opposed to a welcoming pluralistic society, the way this nation was originally all about in its foundation. Ironically, it's also the way early Christianity used to be, before it became an established religion.

    Let's put a finer point on this. Having faith in God and an ego willing to surrender itself, to die to itself in order to find itself in the being of God itself, is a valid path to overcoming the ego.

    However, simply "believing" that God exists and that you are his chosen tribe, is in fact feeding the ego. I cannot count how many Christian preachers and politicians are nothing but all ego. Calling the name of God down for their political causes, as if they were some anointed prophet or prophetess of God almighty. Pure ego. "I'm called by God to lead America back to God!". There are droves of these prophets of Baal in the ranks of the Christian Nationalist movement. They define it.

    Actually, the modern, neo-Atheists, those like Dawkins, and Harris, and Hitchens, and the other anti-theist branch of atheism, are born out of response to the Christians who rose out of the womb of modern American protestant fundamentalist ranks. Ex-Christians typically are Ex-Evangelical/Fundamentalists. Of course there are Ex-Catholics too, but in my experience most are former fundamentalists.

    And what you consider them as "losing faith", I consider to be more accurately understood as losing belief in the things they were being told to believe. Faith is a matter of the heart, and many of them still have faith there is something bigger and better than being told they have to divorce their reasoning minds in order to have faith.

    So I see them as losing beliefs, not faith. It is their faith that those beliefs were inadequate to support their faith. There's a big difference here as well.
     
    #27 Windwalker, Nov 20, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2022
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  8. Sand Dancer

    Sand Dancer Crazy Cat Lady

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2013
    Messages:
    6,881
    Ratings:
    +4,535
    Religion:
    Agnostic Buddhist
    And napping after.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  9. blü 2

    blü 2 Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2017
    Messages:
    11,426
    Ratings:
    +7,559
    Religion:
    Skeptical
    Somebody (D G Rossetti and Chesterton are mentioned, but no source is ever cited) once joked, "The worst moment for an atheist is when he's really thankful and has no one to thank".

    Way back when I drove cabs in my student days, I noticed that I occasionally murmured "Thanks, T.G." when I'd had a piece of timely and drought-breaking luck in finding a good fare. I also noticed that "T.G." stood for Taxi God. And when I say "I noticed", I mean that I'd already done it before I noticed I'd done it.

    So no argument from me that humans may feel grateful when they benefit from good luck. There'll be an evolutionary advantage in such reactions, I dare say, though I can't be more specific than that.

    (But I never noticed myself blaming bad luck on the Taxi Demon.)
     
  10. Viker

    Viker Spirit in Black

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2011
    Messages:
    8,272
    Ratings:
    +7,901
    Religion:
    In Diabolica
    I'm Creole, of white, native and of African ancestry. I am mostly white but do not forget the whole of who I am. I feel both empathy for one group of ancestors and regret over the actions of the other. So, what's a child of this sort of ancestry to do? Thank a God that turned a blind eye? Thank the aggressors? Ignore it all and obliviously chime in on a stream of seasonal thanks?
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 2
  11. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    8,466
    Ratings:
    +4,001
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Most of the founding fathers were Deists, not Christians.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  12. Hermit Philosopher

    Hermit Philosopher Selflessly here for you

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2010
    Messages:
    1,185
    Ratings:
    +1,055
    I too am of very mixed heritage. Despite never quite fitting in anywhere, it’s a grateful thing to be!

    One grows up knowing that “truths” that do not include everyone’s stories (most “truths”, basically) in actual fact, become lies.

    Real truths are complex and confusing - that’s why they “set us free” from the blindness of single-mindedness.

    Humbly
    Hermit
     
  13. Ponder This

    Ponder This Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2014
    Messages:
    2,032
    Ratings:
    +573
    Thanksgiving isn't just about saying the words, "Thank you."
    A person can say those words almost anytime. A person can give thanks to God almost any time. Thanksgiving is a reciprocal action taken in return.

    In Thanksgiving, a meal is shared. Food is the abundance which was made possible through the help of others. Sharing that food, with those who helped make it possible, is the reciprocal action.
     
  14. Alien826

    Alien826 Older than dirt

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2022
    Messages:
    757
    Ratings:
    +682
    Religion:
    Horizontalist
    I like the question, "What does an atheist cry when having an orgasm?" Humanists say "Oh man, Oh man!".

    It's all been said otherwise. One thought I had while reading the OP was that the only thing I took away from it was that Christians often say Christian things.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  15. blü 2

    blü 2 Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2017
    Messages:
    11,426
    Ratings:
    +7,559
    Religion:
    Skeptical
    Maybe the problem is all the other things they say. Particularly over on the right.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2014
    Messages:
    14,418
    Ratings:
    +13,620
    Religion:
    none
    They went to Holland for religious freedom. They went to America from Holland for a variety of other reasons: economic and quality of life, to avoid the temptations of sin in European cities, to maintain group cohesion and stop people leaving, to be missionaries, etc.

    Although slightly different from how we see deism today.

    Enlightenment era deists tended to be Providential Deists, who added the belief that god had intended humans to flourish in his act of creation to that of a non-interfering god.

    It was basically a liberal Protestant form of Divine Providence and morality, separated from the institutional, theological and miraculous aspects of Christianity (which they rejected).

    IMO, as an academic exercise in taxonomy, it probably makes more sense to think of it as a sect of Christianity than a new belief system, but this doesn't change the fact that they didn't want America to be institutionally Christian.

    They tended to have a very Whiggish view of history, which basically meant that they were the pinnacle of "educated, enlightened" humanity, and that the path of history had inexorably been leading up to people becoming like them and over time, more and more people would become enlightened enough to realise that they were right.

    IMO, what the founding fathers had in common was not a commitment to institutional Christianity, but a common understanding of Providence.

    Not sure what this would mean for modern Americans committed to acting in the spirit of the FF :emojconfused:
     
Loading...