Thank God for the Prophets.....

[Windwalker]

...and those who tell us what to think so we don't have to.

It seems to me this is the core issue with believing in external authorities. It is a projection, an escape, of not wanting to deal with the difficult issues of navigating our own internal landscapes and finding our way through to Truth. We want others to tell us the way, so we don't have to take responsibility. "God said it, I believe it, that settles it for me," is a form of cowardice.

Agree? Disagree?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Couldn't agree more. Religion is a crutch, a crutch that has become a hindrance.

 

[Quagmire]

...and those who tell us what to think so we don't have to.?

Are we talking about prophets or politicians?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

...and those who tell us what to think so we don't have to.

It seems to me this is the core issue with believing in external authorities. It is a projection, an escape, of not wanting to deal with the difficult issues of navigating our own internal landscapes and finding our way through to Truth. We want others to tell us the way, so we don't have to take responsibility. "God said it, I believe it, that settles it for me," is a form of cowardice.

Agree? Disagree?

Me thinks of it like this. When we were teens, we depended on our parents. When we got older, see, we felt we were adults and can take care of ourselves. Half going to churchb or raised in the church becomes av healthy crutch and thankfully so. Not many can to it. My old friend turned Muslim to Christian and her reply was, "I can't do it pon my own!".

Meanwhile, in our thirties we start clarifying our morals. Maybe you find you believed but thats anbout it. Depending, you finally got the age to think outside your comfort zone......or am I talking to soon? Or too late, perhaps.

Then a miracle happens and bits t your control. God told you he is real. Big kid. I read a book that says god is a fafher figure than many people never had. It was more that people can project what they want on god because they know god isnin them and therefore, how can he say no like a real father when the spiritual father is more feeling and patterned circumstances among other human events.

But it cant be helped. Try living in a desert with only yourself to survive. Thats what its like psychologically. Though, its not a bad thing. I never gone through it but almost had ans for me it made me less "connected."

Comfort zones saves peoples lives. I understand. If someone tried proving Buddhism was false and debated me about anestors, then I know what its like having your beliefs that keep you afloat questiones for its validity.

Uncomfortable yes. Anoying that people cant thinknfor themselves? Not that they dont want to. But its impossible god them to live without god.

Security net. Everyone has one.

 

[George-ananda]

Agree? Disagree?

I'm going 'Disagree'.

I owe so much of my spiritual understanding to the great masters and teachers of the eastern (India) and western esoteric wisdom traditions.

These are things I could never have come up with on my own starting from nothing. It would be like figuring out modern chemistry on my own.

I believe many compassionate great souls take birth to teach.

 

[Windwalker]

Are we talking about prophets or politicians?

In the minds of believers, is there a difference?

 

[Quagmire]

In the minds of believers, is there a difference?

I'm asking you.

 

[Windwalker]

I'm going 'Disagree'.

I owe so much of my spiritual understanding to the great masters and teachers of the eastern (India) and western esoteric wisdom traditions.

These are things I could never have come up with on my own starting from nothing. It would be like figuring out modern chemistry on my own.

I believe many compassionate great souls take birth to teach.

Do you view the great masters as infallible?

 

[Windwalker]

I'm asking you.

If you couldn't tell, my question was rhetorical. I'm agreeing with you. They view them the same way.

 

[Quagmire]

If you couldn't tell, my question was rhetorical. I'm agreeing with you.

What is it you think you're agreeing with?

 

[Windwalker]

What is it you think you're agreeing with?

You asked, "Are we talking about prophets or politicians?" It seemed obvious to me you were being rhetorical yourself, since the title of my thread was obvious. To explain humor, loses it's punch. Are you being serious here, or is this part of your sense of humor?

 

[George-ananda]

Do you view the great masters as infallible?

I don't know if perfectly infallible on every small issue or if that even matters.

 

[Quagmire]

You asked, "Are we talking about prophets or politicians?" It seemed obvious to me you were being rhetorical yourself,

Nope, it was a sincere question. I guess the long form would be: which prophets are we talking about? What defines someone as a prophet? Are you talking exclusively (and sarcastically) about those figures who others --- religious people in particular --- consider prophets? Are you including any and all self-proclaimed "prophets? Are you as p***-ed off as I am that we have to wait another whole year for the next season of Game of Thrones (I know it's off topic but come on now).

since the title of my thread was obvious. To explain humor, loses it's punch. Are you being serious here, or is this part of your sense of humor?

Can't something be both?

 

[Windwalker]

I don't know if perfectly infallible on every small issue or if that even matters.

From this, I take that to say, "No, they are not infallible", since infallible means without any error whatsoever. Then to my point, Prophets are viewed as without error. Then your point isn't really at odds with mine then, is it?

 

[Windwalker]

Are you talking exclusively (and sarcastically) about those figures who others --- religious people in particular --- consider prophets?

In particular, yes. That's what I'm chewing against here.

Are you as p***-ed off as I am that we have to wait another whole year for the next season of Game of Thrones (I know it's off topic but come on now).

Hey, I gave up on it after the horrible torture scenes with cutting off and eating a guy's sausage. That's about all I could handle. But I was told that was the worst of it, so I'm considering going back to watch the rest, perhaps.

Can't something be both?

Nothing wrong with irony.

 

[Quagmire]

In particular, yes. That's what I'm chewing against here.


Hey, I gave up on it after the horrible torture scenes with cutting off and eating a guy's sausage. That's about all I could handle. But I was told that was the worst of it, so I'm considering going back to watch the rest, perhaps.


Nothing wrong with irony.

Sorry, I probably shouldn't get involved in debate threads 15 minutes before I have to log out for the night.

Will pick this up again tomorrow.

 

[George-ananda]

From this, I take that to say, "No, they are not infallible", since infallible means without any error whatsoever. Then to my point, Prophets are viewed as without error. Then your point isn't really at odds with mine then, is it?

Well, your post had a little too much 'figure it out for yourself' attitude for me to be comfortable with. Although, I think you may have been pointing at fundamentalist Abrahamic religions. The best eastern and modern spiritual teachers don't really tell us what to think about every specific rule, as many such things are culturally specific and we have to use the general teachings to use our judgment on what is right.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Are you as p***-ed off as I am that we have to wait another whole year for the next season of Game of Thrones (I know it's off topic but come on now).

Probably.

 

[Windwalker]

Well, your post had a little too much 'figure it out for yourself' attitude for me to be comfortable with. Although, I think you may have been pointing at fundamentalist Abrahamic religions. The best eastern and modern spiritual teachers don't really tell us what to think about every specific rule, as many such things are culturally specific and we have to use the general teachings to use our judgment on what is right.

To put a finer point on it, yes I was talking about the Abrahamic ideas of prophets as oracles of God. They speak "revelation" as chosen ones, and their words are not their owns, but God's. So therefore, if you don't think for yourself but just follow them it is perceived that you'll be safe. And that to me indicates a lack of maturity.

I don't quite equate Eastern spiritual teachers with this "infallible" teachings, oracle of God point of view, but I could be wrong. In which case, is it good to never question anything? While there is a balance between learning from a master while being quiet as a student, and never listening to anyone at all and arrogantly presuming you know better than anyone else, to never question is to never grow.

Never growing to me indicates someone lacks the confidence to question or change any ideas they've come to believe in, and that show a lack of courage, being stuck in a cycle of fear and self-doubt. In which case the belief in a prophet to answer all questions for someone, where their opinion is THE opinion, is to shirk away from becoming responsibility for your own thoughts and decisions. "It's not my words, but God's!", is an expression of cowardice, hiding from taking responsibility.

 

[George-ananda]

In which case, is it good to never question anything?

The best eastern teachers say to question, even what they are saying. They say to experience their teachings for yourself, so that you KNOW rather than believe. But this 'knowing' of spiritual things is not likely to come easily in our novice meditation experiences, so we have to intellectually judge these masters and decide to follow what they say as a theory until we can know for ourselves.

Yes, it is different than the Abrahamic fundamentalism, which I think was more what you were criticizing.