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Texas pastor openly calls on 'Christian nationalists' to 'impose their values on society'

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Morality is not about the choices of the individual. Morality is about choices that optimize the group. "Thou shall not steal", does not benefit the choices of the thief. This commandment was designed to make the group less stressed; one less thing to worry and become defensive about.

Not exactly a "Commandment since the Hebrews may have got quite a bit of their laws from the older Babylonian culture during their captivity.

Relative morality is about individual choices. These may be good for that person; thief really wants to steal. However, this choice will make it harder for the group to feel optimize. If some choose to steal, you now have to be on edge.

Wait . . . Do you have the mistaken belief that there is an absolute morality? All morality is relative. One can have an "absolute morality" but it would have to be based upon assumptions. Change the basic assumptions and one changes the morality.

The fact is, some people are attracted to others in different ways. If this is out of the norm, in any circle, it can be stressful on the cohesion of the group; ugly duckling.The moral thing to do would be figure out a way to have your cake and eat it. This might require staying more on the low, so you can choose, while trying to not make people uncomfortable, leading to a back lash. The goal of desensitization is not working. The stress level is on the rise as is the rhetoric.

If it does not harm the group then it does not matter what they feel. The proper solution is almost always education. If one teaches that homosexuality is wrong that will cause your claimed stress when there are homosexual members to that group. If one teaches that homosexuality is normal, it is just a variant in behavior, then that fear tends to go away.

The Left waves too much dirty underwear in the moral majority group's faces, The stress caused a backlash; over sensitized instead of desensitized. This made a relative morality exercise, immoral. since the group is splitting at the very seams the Democrats tampered with.

What on Earth are you talking about?

Homosexuality has been around for centuries, but it stayed on the low, so the larger group would not dwell on it, and those who made such a choice could still have room to choose. What people do not know does not bother them.


Centuries? Are you kidding me? Try many millions of years. And it only seems to have been a problem since the invention of religion. Perhaps you are blaming the wrong people.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Look at this:
19734.jpeg

from Infographic: Income Tax Around The World

and search those countries on this map:
Poverty Rate by Country 2022

In all the countries with the highest taxes, poverty is very low.

I think the reason why there is fewer poor people in those countries, if it is really true, is that they were Christian nations. And Christian values has two reasons why it reduces poverty:
1) People want to help others.
2) People don't want to be burden to others.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
And corporations are... what? Motivated by altruism and magnanimity?

It is true that corporations can be as bad. But the difference is that if people think some corporation is not good, they can start their own or buy some other company's stuff, or just not use that stuff at all.

Companys are motivated usually by money, if they do something wrongly, they lose money. So, they have motive to try to do thing in good way. If government makes mistakes and bad things, they lose nothing. They make even stricter rules and persecute anyone who complains.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
You think you could have become homosexual, if your parents raised you to be one? Or if you had been exposed to other openly gay people who were accepted by others, while you were growing up? Do you see yourself as you could have gone either way, but chose to only act on your hetrosexual inclinations?

I think it is possible that my development could have gone to bad track. But I don't think there is some simple way to raise person to be for example homosexual. It depends much on what kind of person is and if you know the personality well enough, then it is possible to manipulate person. However, I think not all people can be manipulated. This is why I don't think it could be done to another person always intentionally.

So you agree then that trying to tell homosexuals to not be homosexuals, or trying to convert them to be hetrosexuals, is wrong because it is trying to force them to be something they are not? I agree, that no change really happens when someone is forced to conform. That is why I reject threatening people with hellfire and damnation is a path of good. Telling gays they are going to hell, is forcing them out of fear of the flames of hell to be something they are not, for instance.

I don't think any sexuality defines a person. They are humans, and in all humans forcing someone to do something, or not to do something is not in my opinion good.

And about hell, Bible says that eternal life is for righteous, and the others go to hell. That is just how it is.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

Telling that is basically the same as saying, if you put your hand in fire, it will burn. Saying, don't worry, you can place your hand in fire without consequences would be lying and harmful for the other person.

But I don't think anyone should fear hell, it doesn't do anything on its own.

But this is still straining to make your argument work. The second you as a hetrosexual uses any other part of your body on your partner's body, such as nibbling on their ear to excite them sexually, you are using a part of your body not designed specifically for sex, in sexual ways. It's not wrong for you. Then how is it wrong for homosexuals to do exactly the same thing? Your argument really doesn't hold water in this.

It's more about using body in some way that can be harmful/unhealthy. In Biblical point of view, it is:

If a man lies with a male, as with a woman...
Lev. 20:13

However, this obviously depends much on persons reasonability. For example, we may think that eating through ear is not reasonable, because it is not healthy and doesn't work, but someone else may think it is not stupid.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
It wouldn't be the first time people of faith compromised their beliefs in a time of (real or imagined) crisis... and it won't be the last.

The Israelites got behind a golden calf; the Evangelicals got behind an orange windbag.

Sorry, I don't think that is correct comparison.

On a side note, what exactly is it that America needs to be saved from?

I don't think America needs to be saved, all though I think it will be destroyed. But there is one sad thing about it, I think America, or USA was the last land of the free. Now the world seems to descend to global tyranny, where freedom is dead.
 

TLK Valentine

Read the books that others would burn.
Sorry, I don't think that is correct comparison.

Clearly I do.

I don't think America needs to be saved, all though I think it will be destroyed. But there is one sad thing about it, I think America, or USA was the last land of the free. Now the world seems to descend to global tyranny, where freedom is dead.

If America is going to be "destroyed," clearly something is going to destroy it.
On the assumption that this is something you'd like to prevent, you have the thing you want to save it from.

Sounds like you could've just said "globalism"; it's a common enough scare word...
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
I think the reason why there is fewer poor people in those countries, if it is really true, is that they were Christian nations. And Christian values has two reasons why it reduces poverty:
1) People want to help others.
2) People don't want to be burden to others.

I wish US Christians would focus on those things.
 
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SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I think taught is not good word for it. It can't be said "now you are attracted to something", or "you must be attracted to this". And actually, if you try to do so, the opposite happens more probably.
So, commanded, then?

Why do you believe someone can be commanded to be attracted to anyone? Is that how attraction works in your brain?

It is more that person must learn to like something. And to learn to like something, one must start see something desirable in it.
And now we're back to "taught."

You're all over the place.


Also, I think it is important to notice, gay parents don't produce children. So, sexual orientation is not something that is inherit biologically.
Yes, they absolutely can and do. My cousin gave birth to her very own daughter from her very own uterus.

But that's beside the point here, isn't it? You're claiming that people can be taught or commanded to like things they don't like or develop attractions where there were none before.

There is no "gay gene" any more than there is a "straight gene." Biology and genetics are actually pretty complex and non-binary. That doesn't mean sexual attraction is learned or can be commanded into existence.

It is not reasonable, because it goes against the purposes of body. Like for example, ear is not for eating, even though it is also hole in a head. If you would try to eat through your ear, it would be harmful for your health.
Being attracted to someone has absolutely nothing to do with the "purpose of body." Whose to say what the "purpose of body" even is in the first place?
And I'm sure you're aware that sexual activities aren't restricted to just gay people or straight people, right?


And, as said also in the Bible, the homosexual act itself is the problem. Attraction is not necessary itself a problem. All though I am not sure what you mean with it. The problem can be the desire to do something that is not good.
And what exactly is the "homosexual act itself?"

Because all homosexuality is, is an attraction to a person of the same sex as oneself.

What do you think, when you choose your friends, is it also based on attraction? You see them in some way attractive? It doesn't necessary mean that you want to have sex with them.
I choose my friends based on the content of their character. I am attracted to people who have what I consider to be good moral character. I don't care much for their sexual orientation, as that is their business.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
How many of them are poor because of taxes? I think it would be best for them to have healthcare in some other way.
What "other way?"
I mean, I think the US is a pretty good example for why universal healthcare should be provided to all. Just like most every single other country on the planet does for its citizens.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
I think the reason why there is fewer poor people in those countries, if it is really true,
If it isn't, bring evidence.
is that they were Christian nations. And Christian values has two reasons why it reduces poverty:
Japan and China, Christian nations?
1) People want to help others.
2) People don't want to be burden to others.
That may be true, even in non Christian nations. And what do people do who want to help? They pay taxes so the government can help, impartial and nation wide (aside from guaranteeing justice, security and infrastructure).
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Sorry, I don't think sexual orientation is the inner core of a person. The traits that can lead to that orientation may be, but the same traits can lead also to other outcomes.



But they can learn to use right hand as well. Using left hand is not harmful. That is why I think there should not be any reason to change that. And even if something is harmful, I think people should not be forced to reject it. Forcing some change doesn't cause a real change, it often probably only makes things worse. In every attempt for change, it should come from good reasoning. And if there are no good reasons, the change is not necessary.



Ok, thank you, so there is some higher value than attraction. We can limit people to act on their attraction. I am not going to limit anything, I am just saying that it would be best, if people don't do things that are not good for them, even if they have attraction. This is also for heterosexuals, it would be good, if also they would not do things that are not good for them.



Even if the sexual parts don't work properly, they still are designed for certain purpose and using them for that is not unreasonable.
I'm a lefty.
I cannot learn to do certain things with my right hand. I just can't.
Using scissors, for example. In my left hand, I can cut like the wind. In my right hand, it's a total disaster.
I had a teacher in the first grade that tried to force me to use my left hand. You should see my cut and paste projects from back then. Good grief they're a mess!

The point is that people used to think that being left-handed was sinister and weird and meant you were a bad person. This was not based on good reasoning.
People used to spend a lot of time trying to force people to change to right-handedness. My stepfather is one of these people as well, and as a result, his handwriting is, to this day, basically illegible. Similarly, your views on homosexuality do not seem to based on good reasoning, but rather, your personal preferences and desires.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think it is possible that my development could have gone to bad track.
Respectfully, I think this comes to my original point. For some people they can find other people of the same sex attractive that way, as well as those of the opposite sex. As I said, human sexuality is along a spectrum, not hard clean divisions the way we like to categorize things as this or as that. So for those who can relate to those feelings of same-sex attraction more than others, but are given a powerful negative message from their community that those are "bad" or evil, or sin, etc., then they may very well repress those feelings as "wrong" in themselves.

Then the unfortunate thing is, the message they tell themselves internally, is that there is something wrong with them, that they are bad people, and they are in conflict with themselves emotionally and psychologically, which then directly affects their spiritual wellbeing.

Everyone does this to themselves in one area of life or another, such as being a male and not living up to this cultural ideal of being a he-man, the rugged individualist, the successful climber in business, the ideal husband who provides for his family financially while his wife stays at home to raise the kids. All these ideals of who society or culture tells us we "should" and "shouldn't" be, put us into conflict with the reality of who we really know who we are, at a subconscious level. This role-conformity expectation was especially pronounced for me in my years in the fundamentalist Christian culture, but even aside from that, mainstream culture itself does plenty of that itself.

So, as I've said, when someone does this to something like their sexual self-identity, "I must suppress this evil inside me", calling it evil because of other's judgments (not their own), then that conflict can often result in projecting onto others that demon in themselves, and gay-bash, and the like in order to do battle with their own repressed tendencies they want to kill. Repression can be in fact, far more unhealthy for someone, then any fear of health issues from homosexuality.

None of this is to say or suggest someone explore their homosexual interests in order to "let that self-created 'demon' out to play," to relieve that pressure. But I would say simple self-acceptance of who and what they are, and dropping the whole anti-gay thing, would be enough for them to become more loving and at peace with themselves and others. I know for myself, in different unrelated areas of my life, letting go of that self-hatred is the key to loving others.

But I don't think there is some simple way to raise person to be for example homosexual. It depends much on what kind of person is and if you know the personality well enough, then it is possible to manipulate person.
I would say someone could manipulate someone into having gay sex, if they aren't gay, but that isn't going to make them homosexuals. It's not going to stick. It's not going to become what they now want all the time, if that is not who they are.

I know of those who experimented with other boys growing up as they discovered sex. And that would be more a matter of just having access to unthreatening sex between "friends", rather than navigating the emotional terrain of boy-girl relationships at that level at an early age. But them doing that as an experiment is not going to make them homosexuals, or mean that they are homosexual, if they actually aren't.

I don't think any sexuality defines a person.
I would say that one's sexual identity, very much is part of one's own self identity. For instance, as a hetrosexual male, I may choose to not have sex with anyone at all, because I prefer to direct my energies and attentions elsewhere. But I still know that I am a hetrosexual male, whether I act upon that or not. It is part of my self-identity.

Same thing with gays. Same thing with bi-sexuals. A bi-sexual may choose to never pursue same-sex relationships for similar reasons. Too complex. Too socially risky, etc. But they are still bi-sexual people, and that is what they know about themselves to be true. It is part of their own self-identity.

The problems begin when we deny ourselves to ourselves, break that part of ourselves off and deny it or even hate it. Then we create problems for ourselves, emotionally, psychological, socially, and spiritually. One does not need to display these things to others, but we do need to be honest with ourselves at least. God knows the truth of us, and loves us unconditionally. We need to learn how to do that too. That's the key to loving others unconditionally as well.

They are humans, and in all humans forcing someone to do something, or not to do something is not in my opinion good.
We are in agreement. Love is always invitational, never forces itself. The 13th chapter of 1 Corinthians speaks the truth of the nature of Love.

And about hell, Bible says that eternal life is for righteous, and the others go to hell. That is just how it is.
I don't have a problem understanding hell as a real state of being. I very much believe that the descriptions of hell as a "place" is a metaphor for something real in ourselves as well live our lives in darkness separated from its true Source, which is Light. Hell is an experience of living life in darkness, as opposed to living life in the LIght. It's a way of being, a condition of being, a lived experience. And that is real.

I think it's more productive to think of heaven and hell, in terms of this life. Not places you go to after this life.

Telling that is basically the same as saying, if you put your hand in fire, it will burn. Saying, don't worry, you can place your hand in fire without consequences would be lying and harmful for the other person.
But you must be careful that what you think is sin for someone else, is not sin to them. That's why I make such an emphasis for Christians to spend some earnest time reading Paul's admonishment to them in Romans 14. He spent an entire chapter going over this. And yet, so few Christians I know understand the importance of that, or take it to heart. I believe that is because they simply "don't get it", yet.

It's more about using body in some way that can be harmful/unhealthy. In Biblical point of view, it is:

If a man lies with a male, as with a woman...
Lev. 20:13
The only thing I read as harmful or unhealthy there, is the threat against those who do that by others who would inflict that harm upon them. Aside from ancient laws that prohibited that activity under the threat of capital punishment, what actually is harmful or unhealthy in the act of homosexuality itself? STD's? Well, don't have promiscuous sex then. Remain monogamous, or have protected sex.

Now regarding what you quoted from Leviticus, I'd like to say a few words. I know that there are certain groups of Christians, fundamentalists in particular, who treat the OT law as of equal voice and importance as the NT teachings. But if that were true, then why did Christ have to come? Just follow the OT, and be done with it. Paul wrote at length in Hebrews (or whoever the author actually was), about that very point.

There are those Christians, which I can more easily identify with, who see Jesus as superseding the OT law. The book of Leviticus does not have an equal voice to Jesus. In fact, Jesus actually directly cites Leviticus and teaches a "better way", than what Moses taught. He had that authority.

"You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also."​

So if you want to follow Jesus, then follow Jesus. Not Moses. Jesus overrode Moses and the more privative, brutal form of social structures, such as cutting off someone's hands, knocking their teeth out, gouging their eyes out, crushing them to death for having sex with another man, and so forth. "But I say unto you...", Jesus said.

So for Christians, the popular saying of "What would Jesus do", has far more importance to us today, then "What would Moses do". Jesus taught a "better way", then the brutality of old ways.

And beside that, as Paul said, if you are going to say you need to follow the law, then you need to actually do that. Not just quote Leviticus when it serves to reject homosexuals. Eating shellfish is also called an abomination. But are there fundamentalist Christians protesting Red Lobster restaurants? Hell, no. Their sitting in them eating lobsters and crabs, while quoting Leviticus how gays are sinners! :)

You get my point here?

However, this obviously depends much on persons reasonability. For example, we may think that eating through ear is not reasonable, because it is not healthy and doesn't work, but someone else may think it is not stupid.
Regarding your analogy of eating through the ear. Of course that is not reasonable. You will never be able to satisfy your hunger craving through that orifice. However, you can satisfy your sexual cravings using other parts of your body, such as hands or the mouth, or.... use your imagination. You can be sexual fulfilled, having sex other ways besides penetration. So since you can't get food to your stomach through the ear canal, but you can have sex successfully using other parts of the body, your analogy doesn't work.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
I think the reason why there is fewer poor people in those countries, if it is really true, is that they were Christian nations.

Last I checked Japan was primarily Shinto and Buddhist.
I sincerely doubt China of all places was a Christian nation at any point, like my guy it’s China after all
The Netherlands meanwhile is literally one of the most secular European nations on earth and it’s religious history is….blended let’s just say.
Australia is secular, I live here so I would know
The rest are at best “Cultural Christians” with Church attendance varying to large degrees. Obviously there’s quite a few nuances to consider, I’m just saying. I don’t know if “Christian Nations” is necessarily applicable.
Might want to brush up on your world history a bit.

And Christian values has two reasons why it reduces poverty:
1) People want to help others.
2) People don't want to be burden to others.
If only the US could put those principles into actual practice.
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I mean, I think the US is a pretty good example for why universal healthcare should be provided to all. Just like most every single other country on the planet does for its citizens.
Yes, and we have a great many Christians here in the States that elevate their "hard-earned money" and/or a weird sense of "freedom" even over what Jesus taught in his Sermon On the Mount.
 

TLK Valentine

Read the books that others would burn.
It is true that corporations can be as bad. But the difference is that if people think some corporation is not good, they can start their own or buy some other company's stuff, or just not use that stuff at all.

Companys are motivated usually by money, if they do something wrongly, they lose money. So, they have motive to try to do thing in good way. If government makes mistakes and bad things, they lose nothing. They make even stricter rules and persecute anyone who complains.

Indeed -- one could say without hyperbole that companies are motivated by their love of money.

And IIRC, the Bible has some pretty explicit words about the love of money... doesn't it?

But here's the punchline: You trust the companies over the government because you think America is going to be destroyed by globalism, while you remain blissfully unaware of the truth staring you in the face: The companies ARE the globalists.

Capitalism is a great system,and I'm not knocking it, but it has two fundamental and related weaknesses:
1. It is inherently unstable, and
2. In order to survive, it must ALWAYS be growing.

The Capitalists must expand their operations to reach new markets in order to make more money... globalism is not their enemy, but an inevitability, as their need to grow is NOT going to be stopped at a national border.

Corporations are already multinational entities, and their bottom line is not going to be slowed down by a bunch of imaginary lines drawn on a map.

Don't you get it? You rail against globalism, while you support the very people who profit from it.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...The companies ARE the globalists....


Maybe, it certainly looks like many companies want to become the government, because then they can force people to take their vaccines for example. I think it is very important to not let the companies to become the government. Unfortunately, it seems to be already very much so. And in this case, it is no more capitalism, but fascism. It is almost funny how "capitalistic" world is becoming more and more fascistic, but the same is basically in "communistic" China. Only the way how government and companies become tied is little different.

...
1. It is inherently unstable, and
2. In order to survive, it must ALWAYS be growing.
...
Don't you get it? You rail against globalism, while you support the very people who profit from it.

Pure capitalism is not unstable. The instability comes when government is involved to control everything. There is no good reason to think capitalism requires constant growth.

"Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit."
Capitalism - Wikipedia
 
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