1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Tell me about the Trinity

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by blü 2, May 21, 2020.

  1. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2017
    Messages:
    6,476
    Ratings:
    +3,738
    Religion:
    Skeptical
    I find the expression "God's will" is used very commonly in Christian conversation.

    So I ask ─

    Does Jesus have a will independent of and distinguishable from the Father's will?

    Does the Ghost?

    If so, which of those does 'God's will' mean?

    If not, in what sense are there 'three persons' instead of just, say, 'three manifestations'?
     
  2. Mike.Hester

    Mike.Hester Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2020
    Messages:
    231
    Ratings:
    +38
    Religion:
    none
    The trinity, which is never mentioned in any biblical script, from day one, has been the greatest source of religious friction among Christians. At the Council of Nicaea the feud continued which resulted in banishment of those who opposed the word Homoousian to properly define the divine trinity. The trinity is clearly derived from pagan sources. There is the Hindu trinity,Brahma,Vishnu and Siva. Mithraists also had a divine trinity.Originally, the trinity as a divine power was a part of ancient cosmology. regretfully,unknown christian writers read those ancient concepts literally and which resulted in confusion which has lasted for the last sixteen hundred years.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  3. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2017
    Messages:
    2,306
    Ratings:
    +1,332
    Religion:
    Non Religious/ Loves Religions
    The concept of the Egyptian soul is that there are three aspects to it. These Egyptian concepts helped me to understand the possibility of a Trinity better.

    The Egyptian Soul: the ka, the ba, and the akh

    I suspect the three in the Trinity Godhead having the same will is like three people working on a single project. They both have independent minds but have the same goal (will), which is to create the same thing. According to the Bible it is the Father that guides the other two though, which is why the Eastern Orthodox Trinity makes more sense to me in light of the Bible because both Jesus and the Holy Spirit emanate from the Father as he is the main source for them both.

    The problem is that them being three persons but one being is a problem, as they have the same essence, but to me that seems the same as pagan Gods. Maybe their choice of words is wrong?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    32,084
    Ratings:
    +14,527
    Religion:
    ecumenical & naturalistic Catholic
    There must have been a big sale lately on threads that deal with the Trinitarian concept.
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  5. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2017
    Messages:
    6,476
    Ratings:
    +3,738
    Religion:
    Skeptical
    Yes, the Trinity is the product of early (4th cent) church politics, and is called by the churches "a mystery in the strict sense", which is a polite synonym for "incoherent". However, there may be people ─ presumably Christians ─ who have a better insight into these questions than I do.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  6. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2017
    Messages:
    6,476
    Ratings:
    +3,738
    Religion:
    Skeptical
    Unfortunately, what you say makes sense, so in our Venn diagram it and the Trinity doctrine have no overlap.

    But I'm hoping that Christians out there can clarify the matter for me.
     
  7. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2017
    Messages:
    6,476
    Ratings:
    +3,738
    Religion:
    Skeptical
    If there were bargains, I missed them.

    Can you illuminate the questions in the OP?
     
  8. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    32,084
    Ratings:
    +14,527
    Religion:
    ecumenical & naturalistic Catholic
    I'll try.

    Indication is yes since Jesus said he did not know of when the "end of times" would be and that only "the Father knows".

    There's some theological debate as to whether the Holy Spirit is actually "God's spirit" that is found in the Tanakh, but this is beyond my pay-grade.

    I would assume both in the final analysis, but I certainly cannot claim to know as such. Actually, I have far more questions than answers, btw.

    The concept of "essence", as far as what's taught within Catholicism, has it that Jesus and the HS are of the "essence" of God the Father but are not exactly identical to God the Father.
     
  9. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2017
    Messages:
    2,202
    Ratings:
    +422
    Religion:
    Disciple of Jesus
    Basically, it is that we love others as ourselves, because the God’s commandments are in that.

    Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not give false testimony," "You shall not covet," [TR adds "You shall not give false testimony,"] and whatever other commandments there are, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love doesn't harm a neighbor. Love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.
    Romans 13:8-10
     
  10. Mike.Hester

    Mike.Hester Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2020
    Messages:
    231
    Ratings:
    +38
    Religion:
    none
    10 commandments? Another pagan ripoff..almost directly form the Hammurabi code. Love thy neighbour? Zoroastrians first advocated those ideas.
     
  11. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2017
    Messages:
    6,476
    Ratings:
    +3,738
    Religion:
    Skeptical
    Yes, Matthew 24:26, similar in message to Matthew 20:23 ─ "“You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

    One of the problems with the Trinity doctrine is that it's not found anywhere in the NT, not least because it wasn't devised till the 4th century CE. Instead, each of the Jesuses of Paul, Mark, Matthew, Luke and John expressly denies he's God and never once claims to be God. The examples from Matthew above are examples of such denials.

    But if we agree to ignore that and accept the Trinity doctrine retrospectively, then these would be examples of God (Jesus) not knowing what God (the Father) thinks.

    Perhaps the closest we get to an actual disagreement between God (Jesus) and God (the Father) is the "let this cup pass from me" scenes (Mark 14:36, Matthew 26:39, Luke 22:42, which become the much vaguer John 17), but since God (Jesus) is in each case wholly submissive to the will of God (the Father) they're not a true disagreement at all, not a collision of wills.
    The ruach (breath) of God in the Tanakh is, I understand, not taken to be a being distinct from God, but a particular manifestation of [him]. It may be possible to carry that idea over to God (the Ghost) in the NT (though I haven't checked it) ─ but again, if we're going with the Trinity doctrine then God (the Ghost) is [his] own person, albeit more like God (the office boy).

    But if God (Jesus) doesn't have an independent will, then the only difference between him and God (the Father) is what they each know and don't know, as in the example you provided above. It's perplexing that God doesn't know what God knows.

    And if, as appears to be the case, only God (the Father) has an independent will, with which neither God (Jesus) nor God (the Ghost) ever disagrees, then really there's only one God, namely God (the Father) ─ just as in the Tanakh, and in Paul (1 Corinthians 8:6, Philippians 2:11) and just as Jesus says in Mark 12:29&32, Matthew as above, Luke 18:18 and John 5:30, John 17:3, John 20:17 and more.

    Thanks for your post.
     
  12. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein Ov Fire and the Void
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2012
    Messages:
    30,921
    Ratings:
    +16,021
    Religion:
    Germanic Folk Revival / Left-Hand Path
  13. truthseeker7

    truthseeker7 Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2020
    Messages:
    76
    Ratings:
    +9
    Religion:
    Historical Atheist
    THE ANCIENT TRIAD.

    After conceiving the idea of a primeval chaos, constituted of four indestructible elements of which fire was the leading one, the Oriental astrologers began to indulge in speculations relative to the agencies which were engaged in its organization. Having no knowledge of the forces inherent in nature, they imputed this work to three intelligences, which, embodying the All in All, they personified by the figure of a man with three heads, and to this trinity gave the names of Brahma, Vishnu and Siva. Such a figure, carved in stone, may be seen in the island Cave of Elephanta, near Bombay, India, and is popularly believed to represent the Creator, Preserver and Destroyer; but, in determining their true signification, we must be governed by the ancient teachings that "All things were made by one god-head with three names, and this God is all things." Hence the conclusion is irresistible that the first person represents neither the creator nor organizer of chaos, but chaos itself; the second person, its organizer and governor; and the third person, the agent in nature which impresses all her parts with life and motion; the latter being the imaginary great soul or spirit inculcated in the Esoteric philosophy. In support of this opinion it will be found that the Egyptian Triad of Father, Son and Spirit is virtually the same we have assigned to its Oriental prototype. Thus we see that to the ancient Astrolatry Christendom is indebted for the Trinity of


    "God the Father, God the Son,
    God the Spirit—three in one."

    But, having ascribed supreme intelligence or reason to its second person, under the name of the Logos, or Word, and designating its third person as the Holy Ghost, the ancient Triad was usually formulated as the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost, as may be seen by reference to the text in the allegories which we find recorded in I John v. 7, which reads that "There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one."

    Considered in some forms of Astrolatry as too sacred to attach a name to the triune Deity, he was called "the One," and we find him thus designated in the 4th chapter of Revelation, where, like Zeus and Jupiter, of the Grecian and Roman mythologies, he is represented as seated above the firmament, upon a throne from which "proceeded lightnings and thunderings," and to whom all, the subordinate divinities were made to pay homage. As the hurler of thunderbolts he was called "the Thunderer," and as the opener of the windows of heaven, when it rained, he was designated "Jupiter Pluvius." Such was the ancient Triad made to say of himself, in an inscription found in the ruins of the temple at Sais in Egypt, "I am all that has been, all that is, and all that shall be, and no mortal has lifted yet the veil that covers me;" and such was the Triunity referred to as the God Universe by Pliny, the Roman philosopher and naturalist, who, flourishing in the first century of the Christian era, wrote that he is "An infinite God which has never been created, and which shall never come to an end. To look for something else beyond it is useless labor for man and out of his reach. Behold that truly sacred Being, eternal and immense, which includes within itself everything; it is All in All, or rather itself is All. It is the work of nature, and itself is nature.

    Thus we see that, although inclucating homage to a multitude of subordinate divinities, the ancient Astrolatry was only an apparent Polytheism; its enlightened votaries, recognizing the dogma of the unity of God, were in reality Monotheists, paying supreme adoration to the mythical genius of the Sun, to whom we will now direct attention.

    From Astral Wroship
     
  14. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2017
    Messages:
    6,476
    Ratings:
    +3,738
    Religion:
    Skeptical
    Thanks for that.

    Unfortunately it doesn't address the question about the Christian Trinity doctrine that I was asking.

    The Trinity doctrine, unlike the example you've given, says that the one God exists as one substance and three persons. However, according to the doctrine, and in defiance of sense, each of the three persons is God ─ not one third of God, not one of the three members of the board of God Corp, not one of the three God Partners, but each is 100% of God. Yes, 100% + 100% + 100% = 300% = 3 gods ─ but the doctrine denies that outcome. That's why its own theologians call it "a mystery in the strict sense", which means that "it can neither be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation, nor cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed" ─ a polite way of admitting it's incoherent.

    The aspect that I'm trying to clarify in this thread is whether the three persons ever disagree with each other ie exercise an independent will. If they do, that would seem to confirm there were three gods, not one; and if they don't, if they have only the one will between them, that would seem to confirm that they were only one person as well as only one God.
     
    #14 blü 2, May 21, 2020
    Last edited: May 21, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  15. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    32,084
    Ratings:
    +14,527
    Religion:
    ecumenical & naturalistic Catholic
    It's an analysis of numerous scriptures that relate to Jesus' and God's relationship, thus it's a theological. The concept of "essence" relates back to Aristotle and Plato, and we should always remember that the NT was written in Koine Greek, thus it uses that approach.

    He's not specifically God but is the "essence" of God according to the Trinitarian concept, which is saying something that's quite different. It's like if I say "I am the 'essence' of my parents", and to a large extent that is true. But don't blame them, OK?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2017
    Messages:
    2,202
    Ratings:
    +422
    Religion:
    Disciple of Jesus
    Why should I believe it is copied from them and not the other way around?

    And I actually believe here is the beginning of Zoroastrianism.

    Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of Yahweh by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, Yahweh stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,
    Thus says Cyrus king of Persia, All the kingdoms of the earth has Yahweh, the God of heaven, given me; and he has charged me to build him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Whoever there is among you of all his people, Yahweh his God be with him, and let him go up.

    2 Chr. 36:22-23

    I think it begun by Bible God’s influence, that is why it has similarities.
     
  17. Mike.Hester

    Mike.Hester Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2020
    Messages:
    231
    Ratings:
    +38
    Religion:
    none
    The Jewish occult writers have not yet begun with their creation myths when the Hammurabi was Carved into stone. The Jewish writers only had a later idea and most of the old and new testament are copies from other older pagan religions. There is no independent evidence of the 10 commandments: Regretfully 90% of people who study religion, neglect the Axial Age of mankind initiated by the Zoroastrianism. Code of Hammurabi - Wikipedia
     
    #17 Mike.Hester, May 22, 2020
    Last edited: May 23, 2020
  18. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein Ov Fire and the Void
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2012
    Messages:
    30,921
    Ratings:
    +16,021
    Religion:
    Germanic Folk Revival / Left-Hand Path
  19. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2017
    Messages:
    6,476
    Ratings:
    +3,738
    Religion:
    Skeptical
    Yes, in the great majority of Christian sects God is Trinitarian.

    The doctrine denies that the three persons are three different manifestations of the one being. It says instead that each is 100% of God, and that this is 'a mystery in the strict sense'.

    So, as I asked in the OP, how does that work, exactly?

    In particular, if the three persons only have a single will between them, in what sense are they three persons? Wouldn't that mean they were three manifestations of the one person?

    And if each of the three persons in fact has a distinct will, in what sense are they not three gods?
     
  20. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein Ov Fire and the Void
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2012
    Messages:
    30,921
    Ratings:
    +16,021
    Religion:
    Germanic Folk Revival / Left-Hand Path
    I linked a couple of articles here that might help:
    Tell me about the Trinity

    To be honest, I don't bother trying to rationalize or overthink everything anymore. Yes, I believe in the Trinity but don't pretend to know the fine workings of it all. I don't view knowing the details as necessary, anyway.
     
Loading...