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Technology is making capitalism obsolete

Mathematician

Reason, and reason again
Gus Hall - The science and technology revolution

The scientific and technological revolution is changing our world at a dazzling pace. The new technology is molding the future.

[snip]

For example, General Motors just announced that with the use of computers they have cut six months off the 36 months it used to take to design, develop and produce a car.

They eliminated a whole layer of engineers, designers and administrators, and cut 12 percent off the production cost of the vehicle. Because workers never see this savings, the end result is bigger profits for the stockholders and even bigger bucks and bonuses for the executives.

[snip]

New and exotic technologies are being developed at the same time the more established ones are perfected. New technologies exploit different physical processes like biomechanics or quantum mechanics in order to create a whole new level of speed and miniaturization. Not all new technologies will be revolutionary, but some certainly will be.

The direct cause of the next crisis of capitalism will be the mass replacement of human labor by new technology, by computers and robots. At a certain qualitative point, this process will set off a crisis of the whole system, one that capitalism cannot solve. It is one more reason why capitalism is the past and socialism is the future.

[snip]

Socialism is a scientifically planned and operated economic system that eliminates private profits. It eliminates private corporations. It is a system owned and run "of, by and for" all the people. It is a humane system concerned first and foremost with meeting the needs of the people.
The workers are temporarily being shuffled into the expanding service industry, but as this happens workers are becoming more disenfranchised with the crappy jobs they're expected to live by. Automation has been put aside as corporations export the labor requirements to East Europe, Latin America, and Asia. But as these regions industrialize and look to man their own service industry, they will be forced into a corner: either automate or return to industrial jobs to the West.

The internet has already shot a hole through the concept of 'intellectual property." Apple boasts about there being over a billion downloads since its itunes service first started, but over a billion songs are downloaded illegally each month. Television technology too allows for people to break the idea of "private airwaves."

Socialism is riding the back of technology. The two alternatives are having a George Jetson job where all you do all day is push a single button, or being deprived of the capital to survive and revolt.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
The internet has changed the entire paradigm of the Scuba Industry. In the not too distant past, the aspiring diver relied on their shop "mentor" for advice about HOW to dive and what gear to buy. The shop invariably told them that the "other" brands were rubbish and you would surely die if you used them.

Now they can pop onto www.ScubaBoard.com and find out about all sorts of gear and even diving philosophies. The magazines are even becoming obsolete as I can provide more exposure for a LOT LESS. Out of the blue, I have become a player in the Scuba Industry JUST BECAUSE I own a domain name. Pretty stinking funny and way fortunate for me!!! :D
 

Mathematician

Reason, and reason again
The internet has changed the entire paradigm of the Scuba Industry. In the not too distant past, the aspiring diver relied on their shop "mentor" for advice about HOW to dive and what gear to buy. The shop invariably told them that the "other" brands were rubbish and you would surely die if you used them.

Now they can pop onto www.ScubaBoard.com and find out about all sorts of gear and even diving philosophies. The magazines are even becoming obsolete as I can provide more exposure for a LOT LESS. Out of the blue, I have become a player in the Scuba Industry JUST BECAUSE I own a domain name. Pretty stinking funny and way fortunate for me!!! :D

That's very cool. If you don't mind me asking, how much money did it take to set up ScubaForum and get a steady flow of visitors? I imagine nothing comparable to the cost of having a full shop.
 

Mathematician

Reason, and reason again
This forum is for liberals only. If you have a problem with the article and are not a Leftist, there are other forums to address the problem in. Thanks.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I do agree that technology will force either a complete revamp of capitalism, or be it's demise.
But, I do think it would also take a new form of socialism if that is too be the future.

Honestly, if technology replaces most jobs, I foresee the repair techs and programmers becoming the new leaders of society. You can theoretically, (and probably eventually) efficiently run society on machines alone for survival, but not everything will be able to be replaced. Repairmen and Programmers will become so important to society, they will be the ones making the rules.
 

Mathematician

Reason, and reason again
I do agree that technology will force either a complete revamp of capitalism, or be it's demise.
But, I do think it would also take a new form of socialism if that is too be the future.

Honestly, if technology replaces most jobs, I foresee the repair techs and programmers becoming the new leaders of society. You can theoretically, (and probably eventually) efficiently run society on machines alone for survival, but not everything will be able to be replaced. Repairmen and Programmers will become so important to society, they will be the ones making the rules.

Sounds like something similar to socialist Technocracy where people recognized for their profession are the ones who decide how and the people decide what.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Capitalism is based on people spending money.
No spend = no Profit
No profit= no job
No Job= no spend
=Financial collapse.

If only a small percentage of workers are required to make the world go round...
where is the Spend coming from.... etc etc.etc.?
A new system will be required, but it will not be socialism as we know it.
Socialism has been based on the balance of capital and labour.
This balance could not exist.
At the moment a persons place in society is based on money.
In a future as portrayed ... there would be few essential workers and many consumers.
Your value to society will be the special skill you can offer either to Provide the needs society.
Or the ability to entertain society... arts...sporting skills... or pure entertainment.

It is unlikely such momentous change would come with out strife.
Nor is the physical future of the earth so assured that such an outcome is even likely.
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
(peeks into room), Gene, I am fascinated by the possibility you present. I am hoping your Liberal only thread had the intent of no discourse. I will not mention that all service jobs are low paying jobs.

The reason I posted was to ask a question, I hope you will tolerate my one post here and understand I mean no disrespect.

You are correct that technology could provide a higher living standard for everyone. Let's say we could make flat screens for pennies and everyone could have one. Would we not still have to ship and install them requiring people in the service industry?

I will respect this thread by not posting further. Please accept my apology if I have offended anyone.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
That's very cool. If you don't mind me asking, how much money did it take to set up ScubaForum and get a steady flow of visitors? I imagine nothing comparable to the cost of having a full shop.
The cost to set up any forum is minimal: $250 for the software and $100/month will get you started. Getting USERS is another matter. I brought www.ScubaBoard.com into a commercial venture about 1.5 years after we had accumulated over 3,000 registered users. We are now approaching 90,000 and over a million uniques each and every month. But, I am the anomaly to the traditional scuba business.

The "LDS" (Local Dive Shop) has traditionally used training as a loss leader for equipment sales. This kept the price of instruction low and equipment HIGH. With the advent of the i-tailers such as Scuba Gear and Scuba Diving Equipment - Discount dive gear, Scuba.com Diving Portal - Buy Scuba Gear & Scuba Diving Equipment among others, this simply does not work. Internet savvy consumers are buying more and more on line so that the shops have to raise the price of instruction or go out of business. 11 shops have closed here in the Orlando area within the last 18 months. Unfortunately, due to the internet, this does not equate into better sales for the remaining LDSes. If they could figure out how to do air fills over the internet, the LDS would truly be a thing of the past.
 

Luke_17:2

Fundamental Bible-thumper
I realize this is libs only, but there's a question I want to ask;

Has anyone heard the concept of technocracy?

Because that's what this sounds like. Not exactly socialism, but not capitalism either.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
As we are in the "information age", I think that the term technocracy applies nicely. After all, the RICHEST person in the world is none other than Bill Gates. He might be argued to be the most powerful as well since he holds us hostage with his operating system. :D
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Technology is not the answer. As Ani DiFranco says: "every tool's a weapon, if you hold it right". And the same is true of technology.

The battle here is the same battle that has been taking place for all time, among all human societies. It's the battle between individual desires and the collective good. Technology is just another weapon that is being employed in this never-ending battle.

The solution, at this time and place in history, is in one of the most amazing and astonishing breakthrough's in human thought, of all time, and that's the idea of constitutional democracy - a balance of power, and of rights and responsibilities, based on the established ideal of equal freedom and justice for all. Unfortunately, the United States was mankind's first real attempt at this, and the constitutional outline we started with was way too vague and sketchy to survive the inexhaustibly persistent assault of individual greed at work. And as a result it has basically been ripped apart and discarded. We pretend it's still sacred and sacrosanct here in the U.S., but in reality it's pretty much useless, and the government is now itself ungoverned, which means that greed runs amok, as it always will when men aren't made to follow higher ideals.

However, there are other constitutional democracies in the world that have been formed since that first attempt in the U.S. and they have some advantages. They are smaller, and therefor more easily adapted to change, and they have written for themselves more specific constitutions with more clearly specified rights and freedoms, which are more difficult for the politicians to circumvent in pursuit of their own personal desires.

And this IS the answer, right in front of our faces. I suspect that it's hopeless to imagine that the Unites States could ever seriously re-write it's own constitution so as to plug the gaping holes in it, as the very people who would be authorizing the re-writing are the same people that we need the constitution to protect us against. And so they will naturally re-write it to give themselves even more wealth and power, which will destroy the nation completely. So sad to say, I hold out little hope of the U.S. avoiding it's own inevitable collapse. But as new nations form, they can use the more successful models of constitutional democracy as blueprints for their own, and each time a new one is written, it will hopefully advance the cause of democratic self-rule to cover the specific changes in human conditions, and the clever tactics of individual greed.

I am hoping that the ideal of self-rule, as expressed in the world's various constitutional democracies, will evolve and be perfected through use, over time. And eventually the proper balance will be discovered and struck, between individual desire and collective well-being, and the people living under such a balance will be able to recognize and respect the advantages of doing so enough to maintain it properly. And at that point, we will se that our individual desires will be served by maintaining the well-being of the collective. And we will finally have achieved a real workable method of living together.

Unfortunately, you and I probably will not live to see it. But if we do what we can to promote it, now, maybe our grandchildren will.
 

Fluffy

A fool
Technology can also result in socialism in a variety of other interesting ways:
  • Mechanical/Cybernetic/Nanotechnical/Genetical enhancements to humanity resulting in a reduction of diversity of ability.
  • Potentially exponential increase in resources resulting in unlimited supply
  • Potential huge advancements in communications and computing power resulting in an infrastructure capable of supporting global and beyond systems as well as direct democracy.
 

Random

Well-Known Member
I realize this is libs only, but there's a question I want to ask;

Has anyone heard the concept of technocracy?

Because that's what this sounds like. Not exactly socialism, but not capitalism either.

You are correct. A "technocrat" is a retired politician who works for the Scientific Elite.

AL Gore is an example...Global Warming? Bush Snr. is a technocrat.

There are many other examples. It is all liked to the esoteric and the occult.

Dig deep, and find out.
 

Mathematician

Reason, and reason again
I realize this is libs only, but there's a question I want to ask;

Has anyone heard the concept of technocracy?

Because that's what this sounds like. Not exactly socialism, but not capitalism either.

Yeah, I have. Technocracy is an interesting idea, or tool rather. Over the years many of the elements developed by the original technocracy movement have been incorporated into the socialist theory, like energy credits and sustainable regions. Of course the two have always shared similar ideas. The only major difference, other than technocrats arguing that their system is simply a tool and socialists arguing theirs is an ideology, is the structure of society. Socialists want the people to be the sole authority. Technocrats want the people to decide what and the best leaders in the industry to decide how. This difference of opinion will probably have to be resolved for there to be an understanding between the two groups.I would argue the people can spot the best amongst themselves and elevate them to the highest positions as recallable delegates, but technocrats believe the best system is having the workers nominate people and then the level above them choosing from there.
 

Mathematician

Reason, and reason again
Technology is not the answer. As Ani DiFranco says: "every tool's a weapon, if you hold it right". And the same is true of technology.

The battle here is the same battle that has been taking place for all time, among all human societies. It's the battle between individual desires and the collective good. Technology is just another weapon that is being employed in this never-ending battle.

The solution, at this time and place in history, is in one of the most amazing and astonishing breakthrough's in human thought, of all time, and that's the idea of constitutional democracy - a balance of power, and of rights and responsibilities, based on the established ideal of equal freedom and justice for all. Unfortunately, the United States was mankind's first real attempt at this, and the constitutional outline we started with was way too vague and sketchy to survive the inexhaustibly persistent assault of individual greed at work. And as a result it has basically been ripped apart and discarded. We pretend it's still sacred and sacrosanct here in the U.S., but in reality it's pretty much useless, and the government is now itself ungoverned, which means that greed runs amok, as it always will when men aren't made to follow higher ideals.

However, there are other constitutional democracies in the world that have been formed since that first attempt in the U.S. and they have some advantages. They are smaller, and therefor more easily adapted to change, and they have written for themselves more specific constitutions with more clearly specified rights and freedoms, which are more difficult for the politicians to circumvent in pursuit of their own personal desires.

And this IS the answer, right in front of our faces. I suspect that it's hopeless to imagine that the Unites States could ever seriously re-write it's own constitution so as to plug the gaping holes in it, as the very people who would be authorizing the re-writing are the same people that we need the constitution to protect us against. And so they will naturally re-write it to give themselves even more wealth and power, which will destroy the nation completely. So sad to say, I hold out little hope of the U.S. avoiding it's own inevitable collapse. But as new nations form, they can use the more successful models of constitutional democracy as blueprints for their own, and each time a new one is written, it will hopefully advance the cause of democratic self-rule to cover the specific changes in human conditions, and the clever tactics of individual greed.

I am hoping that the ideal of self-rule, as expressed in the world's various constitutional democracies, will evolve and be perfected through use, over time. And eventually the proper balance will be discovered and struck, between individual desire and collective well-being, and the people living under such a balance will be able to recognize and respect the advantages of doing so enough to maintain it properly. And at that point, we will se that our individual desires will be served by maintaining the well-being of the collective. And we will finally have achieved a real workable method of living together.

Unfortunately, you and I probably will not live to see it. But if we do what we can to promote it, now, maybe our grandchildren will.

I would go further by substituting the word constitutional democracy with "social consciousness," or to a lesser degree what Marx called "class awareness." As has been predicted before, the very technology capitalists create is making the current system outdated. The internet has paved the way for piracy and freeware. Kids are getting their hands on programs like Photoshop and and creating masterpieces some professionals couldn't even replicate. Very soon radio airwaves could become property to anyone with a camera and access to the right equipment.

But as long as there remains menial labor, socialism will require a higher level of awareness, that by doing this we and, with a 95% chance likelihood, you are living better than under capitalism. Communism relies on the notion social pressure and individual desires are enough to keep a civilization thriving, which I don't think is an absurd belief at all. But some very basic concepts to our current system like what jobs are respectable will have to change. If everyone looks down on farm hands or factory workers, then people will not fill those positions. But if all labor is held to high esteem [with varying degrees based on personal morality] and fun is used to enlighten the work place, serious change is possible.

We are having to accept that certain industries, like food, will probably collapse unless automation is pretty much up and running. While many people think of their meals as art, cooks do not like assembly-line like work. And few people I know of enjoy serving as a career. Fancy meals will probably be restricted to special occasions like birthdays and weddings, with you contacting a local cook and scheduling an appointment. I don't see this as a problem, though. For one it's showing people are finally enjoying the labor they want to perform. Secondly, people will have to -- oh my god, eat with their families. The cooks who don't want to work for special occasions may choose to contribute their knowledge to the development of better foods and frozen packages. I guess fast food could still remain, though -- since it can easily be replicated with only bare minimum service required.

The two main industries, mining and agriculture, will primarily be dealt with in the first stages to make it as accessible, fun, and automated as possible. I've already said elsewhere that if we can land rovers on foreign planets we can build machines that plow through mines with a remote handler. The founder of the "Venus Project" has more ideas if you want to check out his video.

Constitutional democracy is fine so long as the people realize that direct democracy is the underlining force behind a peaceful civilization. I don't see the problem with federations crafting brief constitutions to show what they expect from regions wanting to join, but it should also be the right of communes to pull out of the federations or refuse to join. Not every federation, commune, and work place will operate on a "majority vote" basis. For the smaller worker councils it can be consensus. For the larger federations [global federations?] it could be 70%.

A constitution is simply an agreement that must be met while the parties participate. For example, let's say there is a federation of 300 communes whom all agreed to a constitution. In this constitution it says all policies made on the federal level must be passed by "75%" of the population. Over time people become annoyed with this and want to lower the number. Initiatives spring up as a result of this growing opinion, and when they reach a certain level of popularity, as determined by the constitution, they are voted on by the citizens of that federation. With technology today you can probably just come home, log onto a website, sign in, and vote. Five minutes of your daily routine. If none of the popular initiatives pass and a commune is really that concerned with it, the commune has the right to withdraw from the federation. But then it is also withdrawing from any benefits brought about by joining the federation.

In all likelihood there will be different degrees of federations that each contribute in different ways [Denton Federation, Texas Federation, South-East Federation, United States federation], all the way to global federations. Maybe even a world federation. Although with each increment, actual enforcement becomes harder. That means a truly libertarian front, backed up by a higher structure in case of disgusting rogue behavior like war, genocide, slavery, or private property.
 
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