Teacher Sued For Bashing Christianity -- Will Others Be Censored?

[AxisMundi]

....So now the teacher is being punished for putting forth a quick statement that is quite frankly a true statement.

All this is in the ruling.

Yes, it is true, but since when has public school become the soap box for personal opinion?

Partisan politics and religion, whether for or against, have no place in public school curriculum.

Such an environment is intended to teach the student the basics of education and life skills as a foundation for either entering the workforce and/or going on to higher education. Not to promote the educator's political or religious ideals.

 

[gnomon]

Religion belongs in church, at home, and in religious institutions. It has no place in public education at the elementary or high school levels.

Religious practice doesn't belong in schools. Religion does belong in teaching history. There is no history without it.

 

[Alceste]

Yes, it is true, but since when has public school become the soap box for personal opinion?

Partisan politics and religion, whether for or against, have no place in public school curriculum.

Such an environment is intended to teach the student the basics of education and life skills as a foundation for either entering the workforce and/or going on to higher education. Not to promote the educator's political or religious ideals.

So, just to be clear, you do not believe in freedom of self-expression for teachers? Is that in all cases, or only cases relating to religion and politics? Would it be OK for a teacher to express a personal preference for chocolate ice cream over vanilla, or would that also get your panties in a twist?

I don't think you're grasping the basic problem that it is well-nigh impossible to deliver several hundred hours of public speech without revealing something of your personal views. If there are teachers who can pull that off and still present an interesting and engaging class (while ensuring, like Corbett did, their students out-perform other classes), I have nothing but praise for them. But I don't believe it is realistic or desirable to prohibit the expression of personal opinion in public schools.

 

[Riverwolf]

Absolutely wrong.

Since when is Genesis and the gospels English in origin?

Since when was the Odyssey? I guess that should be left out of English class, too? (Or any other piece of classic literature not originally written in English. ... by that logic, would Beowulf still be allowed, even though Anglo-Saxxon is pretty much a separate language?)

 

[gnomon]

Yes, it is true, but since when has public school become the soap box for personal opinion?

Partisan politics and religion, whether for or against, have no place in public school curriculum.

Such an environment is intended to teach the student the basics of education and life skills as a foundation for either entering the workforce and/or going on to higher education. Not to promote the educator's political or religious ideals.

I would like to know when the quoted statement by Corbett was taken and in what context. The ruling alludes to it being in reaction to another teacher wanting to make statements regarding evolution in the school newspaper. Was Corbett's statement taken in the class? Did someone explicitly ask the teachers view of the newspaper and the other teacher's comments?

I presume I'm not the only person who remembers quite well picking at your teachers to get their views before and after class. Or even breaks during lectures. I remember my class mercilessly hounding my former biology teacher if she smoked pot during the '60's because she had such a hippie demeanor about her. To her credit she always was able to deflect the question. I can only imagine what would have happened and what would be said, or even made up, about her if she answered "yes" in exasperation.

And here we have a teacher being nailed for making a comment in regards to another teacher's comments on the subject in a school newspaper. We don't even know if he said this as part of a lecture or not! At least I have not found the information stating such.

 

[AxisMundi]

Religious practice doesn't belong in schools. Religion does belong in teaching history. There is no history without it.

Religious doctrine has no place in history class.

 

[Apollonius]

Strange indeed when one considers that television producers are allowed to belittle Christianity while at the same time they are pressed as not to present religions such as Islam in a bad light. Then again, Christianity is historically connected to European civilization and thus is open game for any and all detractors that wish to despoil the remaining vestiges of a dying culture, or rather a culture that is being butchered by the obscenities of a world gone mad.

 

[Alceste]

I would like to know when the quoted statement by Corbett was taken and in what context. The ruling alludes to it being in reaction to another teacher wanting to make statements regarding evolution in the school newspaper. Was Corbett's statement taken in the class? Did someone explicitly ask the teachers view of the newspaper and the other teacher's comments?

I presume I'm not the only person who remembers quite well picking at your teachers to get their views before and after class. Or even breaks during lectures. I remember my class mercilessly hounding my former biology teacher if she smoked pot during the '60's because she had such a hippie demeanor about her. To her credit she always was able to deflect the question. I can only imagine what would have happened and what would be said, or even made up, about her if she answered "yes" in exasperation.

And here we have a teacher being nailed for making a comment in regards to another teacher's comments on the subject in a school newspaper. We don't even know if he said this as part of a lecture or not! At least I have not found the information stating such.

The article claimed it was in response to a student question about that case. I get the sense that Corbett, being personally involved in the conflict, was particularly passionate about the issue. To be fair, he was discussing a science teacher who taught ID in science class and wanted to extrapolate in the student newspaper. I'd be annoyed too. The comment wasn't "creationism is superstitious nonsense", it was "I'm not going to allow so-and-so an opportunity to spread his superstitious nonsense". Something like that.

I think that was inappropriate, but for different reasons. It is not professional behavior for teachers to air their personal disputes in class. By doing so, he risked undermining the credibility and effectiveness of a colleague (not to mention his own).

That said, creationism IS superstitious nonsense. I think we can all agree on that.

 

[gnomon]

Religious doctrine has no place in history class.

Yes it does.

Ever heard of Manifest Destiny. It was a religious doctrine and a very important concept in history in order to understand the United States government view towards grabbing "the West".

Ever heard of Diving Right of Kings. Another important religious doctrine that defined the monarchies of Europe.

You cannot study Europe, the subject of history for the class in question, without discussing religious doctrine. The specific doctrines and beliefs that led to the Inquisition, Martin Luther, protestantism in Europe, the Crusades, etc. It's impossible.

Unless we want to turn out imbeciles from the classroom.

 

[monta]

So, just to be clear, you do not believe in freedom of self-expression for teachers? Is that in all cases, or only cases relating to religion and politics? Would it be OK for a teacher to express a personal preference for chocolate ice cream over vanilla, or would that also get your panties in a twist?

Don't you think this is a bit disingenuous, if a teacher held the opinion that boys were more intelligent than girls, had a preference for white people over black people, or believed that the earth was 6,000 years young, should they be allowed voice this in a classroom?

No one expects teachers to be robots, but they are just as prone to bigotry as anyone, which is why the laws are in place to attempt to curb prejudice.

 

[Alceste]

Strange indeed when one considers that television producers are allowed to belittle Christianity while at the same time they are pressed as not to present religions such as Islam in a bad light. Then again, Christianity is historically connected to European civilization and thus is open game for any and all detractors that wish to despoil the remaining vestiges of a dying culture, or rather a culture that is being butchered by the obscenities of a world gone mad.

 

[AxisMundi]

So, just to be clear, you do not believe in freedom of self-expression for teachers? Is that in all cases, or only cases relating to religion and politics? Would it be OK for a teacher to express a personal preference for chocolate ice cream over vanilla, or would that also get your panties in a twist?

So how is a teacher's freedom of expression denied OUTSIDE THE CLASSROOM?

And time for more Latin words again.

Your arguments seem to indicate that you support an educator indoctrinating children into their religion in class. Do you support this or not?

If you do not (which I cannot see you supporting) then why do you support a double standard?

I don't think you're grasping the basic problem that it is well-nigh impossible to deliver several hundred hours of public speech without revealing something of your personal views. If there are teachers who can pull that off and still present an interesting and engaging class (while ensuring, like Corbett did, their students out-perform other classes), I have nothing but praise for them. But I don't believe it is realistic or desirable to prohibit the expression of personal opinion in public schools.

It is quite possible to teach without inserting one's personal or religious views into the classroom. Teachers have done it for many decades, and many educators do so today.

When I went to school, there was much to do in the media about removing religious doctrine and the bible from public school curriculum. Not one word was said in the classroom.

When I went to school, Republican and Democrat were concepts taught, not forwarded as one superior to the other.

You, sir, sell our Nation's educators short.

 

[darkendless]

It is quite possible to teach without inserting one's personal or religious views into the classroom. Teachers have done it for many decades, and many educators do so today.

When I went to school, there was much to do in the media about removing religious doctrine and the bible from public school curriculum. Not one word was said in the classroom.

When I went to school, Republican and Democrat were concepts taught, not forwarded as one superior to the other.

You, sir, sell our Nation's educators short.

How long ago did you go to school?

In the last 3 years, all 18 lecturers i've had have all been very opinionated as they use their experience to provide examples. Without examples, learning is almost useless.

 

[Apollonius]

Religious doctrine has no place in history class.

Really? Are you suggesting by this that religious doctrines have played no sufficient role in history? .. astounding when one considers the number of wars and butchering of human lives for the sake of contentions arising over religious differences based on opposing doctrines, oftentimes within the selfsame world religion.

 

[Alceste]

Don't you think this is a bit disingenuous, if a teacher held the opinion that boys were more intelligent than girls, had a preference for white people over black people, or believed that the earth was 6,000 years young, should they be allowed voice this in a classroom?

No one expects teachers to be robots, but they are just as prone to bigotry as anyone, which is why the laws are in place to attempt to curb prejudice.

Again, religion is not comparable to ethnicity or gender. And I've already stated that as long as a teacher's students are performing well above average in standard testing, the teacher invites debate and encourages critical thinking, and the majority of the class is devoted to covering legitimate course material I don't care if she expresses the personal opinion that the sky is green.

I would feel differently if we were talking about kindergarten kids here, but we are talking about young adults preparing to enter college. If they can not formulate and defend an autonomous opinion by the time they're in high school, they might as well not bother going.

Also, I don't think we should take it as a given that Corbett is prejudiced against religious people. Whatever these snippets of his lectures taken out of context seems to imply, his actions appear to reveal that he is very respectful and appreciative of all of his students, regardless of their religious beliefs.

 

[gnomon]

The article claimed it was in response to a student question about that case. I get the sense that Corbett, being personally involved in the conflict, was particularly passionate about the issue. To be fair, he was discussing a science teacher who taught ID in science class and wanted to extrapolate in the student newspaper. I'd be annoyed too. The comment wasn't "creationism is superstitious nonsense", it was "I'm not going to allow so-and-so an opportunity to spread his superstitious nonsense". Something like that.

I think that was inappropriate, but for different reasons. It is not professional behavior for teachers to air their personal disputes in class. By doing so, he risked undermining the credibility and effectiveness of a colleague (not to mention his own).

That said, creationism IS superstitious nonsense. I think we can all agree on that.

You're right. Apparently during a course he referred to creationism as "scientifically, it's nonsense". Reading the direct quote in Corbett's attempt to discuss science I would accuse him of at the worst being sloppy. But then again, the last time I took a history course that touched on science was in college with a very good teacher of science history.

Of course, this professor was also a deacon at the local church who brooked no attempt by students, primarily education students, to bow out during the portion of the history class which covered evolution. Two students out of the 16 tried to get excused from the class during that time.

I'd hate to see this student, Farnan, sit through a college level history of science course. But my guess is no one ever will see such a thing.

 

[Alceste]

So how is a teacher's freedom of expression denied OUTSIDE THE CLASSROOM?

Straw man.

Your arguments seem to indicate that you support an educator indoctrinating children into their religion in class. Do you support this or not?

Slippery slope.

If you do not (which I cannot see you supporting) then why do you support a double standard?

I've stated my opinion on whether I'd stand my ground for a religious teacher twice now. Your impression is incorrect.

It is quite possible to teach without inserting one's personal or religious views into the classroom. Teachers have done it for many decades, and many educators do so today.

And most educators are as boring as watching grass grow. The ones that make a lasting impression and exceed average performance ratings are those who are passionate about the subject and encourage critical thinking and classroom discussion, like Corbett.

When I went to school, there was much to do in the media about removing religious doctrine and the bible from public school curriculum. Not one word was said in the classroom.

Relevance? I'm talking about the fact that it is impossible to entirely conceal all personal opinions for hundreds and hundreds of hours. Are you saying you heard absolutely nothing about the personal lives and opinions of any of your teachers, ever? I find that very hard to believe.

You, sir, sell our Nation's educators short.

Madam, thanks. And I'm not a member of your nation. And I have very little faith in most of your educators, judging by the apparent level of education of most of your compatriots (not to mention a few of your presidents). Corbett appears to be an exception to the general rule of mediocrity, and it pains me to see him persecuted.

 

[AxisMundi]

How long ago did you go to school?

In the last 3 years, all 18 lecturers i've had have all been very opinionated as they use their experience to provide examples. Without examples, learning is almost useless.

1960's and 70's.

And we are speaking of elementary and high school levels in this thread, not college or universety. The latter are two different ballparks.

 

[Riverwolf]

1960's and 70's.

90s and 00s for me. Things have changed a great deal.

Where I went to school, the majority of teachers were... not too good, to say the least.

 

[AxisMundi]

Straw man.

How so? Are you permitted to smoke at work? Can you go to work in a skimpy bathing suit?

When one is directly invovled in their career during working hours, one faces certain limitations.

Slippery slope.

Simple request for clarification whcih, I note, you refuse to answer.

I've stated my opinion on whether I'd stand my ground for a religious teacher twice now. Your impression is incorrect.

Clerify.

And most educators are as boring as watching grass grow. The ones that make a lasting impression and exceed average performance ratings are those who are passionate about the subject and encourage critical thinking and classroom discussion, like Corbett.

The best teachers I had did not include their religion or politics in the class.

Relevance? I'm talking about the fact that it is impossible to entirely conceal all personal opinions for hundreds and hundreds of hours. Are you saying you heard absolutely nothing about the personal lives and opinions of any of your teachers, ever? I find that very hard to believe.

Not so much as a "Thank god it's Friday"

Madam, thanks. And I'm not a member of your nation. And I have very little faith in most of your educators, judging by the apparent level of education of most of your compatriots (not to mention a few of your presidents). Corbett appears to be an exception to the general rule of mediocrity, and it pains me to see him persecuted.

I apologize, madam, and I'll stand corrected on your nationality.

As such, you have little say in our education system as you have no experience in the matter.

Good day, madam.