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Tea and Coffee??

zomg

I aim to misbehave!
Thanks for ignoring my questions.

Didn't Jesus say something about what goes into a man/woman doesn't defile them?

Joseph Smith was known to have "a wine every now and then". Do you also criticize him in the same way you do to Katz?
Hey, madhatter, you must have missed my previous post. I kindly quoted said post so that you can more easily answer the two questions I had :D
 

Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hey, madhatter, you must have missed my previous post. I kindly quoted said post so that you can more easily answer the two questions I had :D

I'm not madhatter, but as to your second question, the Word of Wisdom was not a "commandment" when it was first revealed.

And, for the record, what Katzpur does is between her and the Lord. Based on this forum, I believe she has little to worry about when it comes to her own salvation and exaltation.
 

sniper762

Well-Known Member
wow, now im dense. you keep digging deeper

i think that the contents of this thread speaks for itself
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
Hey, madhatter, you must have missed my previous post. I kindly quoted said post so that you can more easily answer the two questions I had :D

#1 Do you know what scripture that is? I will look for it but, I am sure you are taking it out of context.

#2 Yes, even more so. Not to the point of disbelief, But yes I would say "what the hell is wrong with you?" if I saw him drinking. But can you provide a source?
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
I'm not madhatter, but as to your second question, the Word of Wisdom was not a "commandment" when it was first revealed.

And, for the record, what Katzpur does is between her and the Lord. Based on this forum, I believe she has little to worry about when it comes to her own salvation and exaltation.

Yes that is true and I never said anything about her "salvation."

I am more concerned with the example she is putting forth as a self-identifed LDS member who openly criticizes church leadership and drinks "on occasion."
 

zomg

I aim to misbehave!
#1 Do you know what scripture that is? I will look for it but, I am sure you are taking it out of context.

#2 Yes, even more so. Not to the point of disbelief, But yes I would say "what the hell is wrong with you?" if I saw him drinking. But can you provide a source?

Matthew 15.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]“Before the jailor came in, his boy brought in some water, and said the guard wanted some wine. Joseph gave Dr. Richards two dollars to give the guard; but the guard said one was enough, and would take no more. “The guard immediately sent for a bottle of wine, pipes, and two small papers of tobacco; and one of the guards brought them into the jail soon after the jailor went out. Dr. Richards uncorked the bottle, and presented a glass to Joseph, who tasted, as brother and the Doctor, and the bottle was then given to the guard, who turned to go out.” (History of the Church, Vol. 6, page 616)

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Sometime after dinner we sent for some wine. It has been reported by some that this was taken as a sacrament. It was no such thing,; our spirits were generally dull and heavy, and it was sent for to revive us.... I believe we all drank of the wine, and gave some to one or two of the prison guards." (John Taylor, in History of the Church, Vol. 7, page 101)[/FONT]
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Not to the point of disbelief, But yes I would say "what the hell is wrong with you?" if I saw him drinking. But can you provide a source?

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]“Before the jailor came in, his boy brought in some water, and said the guard wanted some wine. Joseph gave Dr. Richards two dollars to give the guard; but the guard said one was enough, and would take no more. “The guard immediately sent for a bottle of wine, pipes, and two small papers of tobacco; and one of the guards brought them into the jail soon after the jailor went out. Dr. Richards uncorked the bottle, and presented a glass to Joseph, who tasted, as brother and the Doctor, and the bottle was then given to the guard, who turned to go out.” (History of the Church, Vol. 6, page 616)[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Sometime after dinner we sent for some wine. It has been reported by some that this was taken as a sacrament. It was no such thing,; our spirits were generally dull and heavy, and it was sent for to revive us.... I believe we all drank of the wine, and gave some to one or two of the prison guards." (John Taylor, in History of the Church, Vol. 7, page 101)[/FONT]
Interesting. So apparently John Taylor didn't record the part where he asked Joseph Smith, "What the hell is wrong with you?" :D
 
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madhatter85

Transhumanist
Evidently it was a mistake for me to put you on ignore. Based on one of Watchmen's responses to you, I realized you'd been posting personal attacks against me. I should have known you were too juvenile to keep your personal opinions about me to yourself. Oh well, I guess I'll have to respond. I hate to stoop to your level, but sometimes a girl's got to do what a girl's got to do.

How pathetic can you get? This response is so asinine it's not even funny. Why would you make such an idiotic comparison? I was speaking specificially of the LDS DIR forum in my post to sniper -- a fact which you conveniently chose to ignore. I don't always or even frequently post views which are contrary to the Church's stance. I do occasionally disagree with a matter of policy or procedure, but I have never, ever, ever taken issue with the Church's position on doctrinal issues. And there has never been one single solitary instance in which I have attempted to present my own personal perspective as doctrine. I bend over backwards to avoid doing this. For your information, if it's not too awfully advanced for your two brain cells to grasp, I have never argued my position on same-sex marriage on the LDS DIR forum. I have expressed my opinion -- which is that all men and women deserve equal civil rights under the laws of our land -- on debate forums. This is absolutely not the same thing, by any stretch of the imagination, as trying to promote them on the LDS DIR. With respect to "Mothers Who Know" (as if anybody other than the individuals who participated on that thread would even have a clue as to what you're talking about), this was, once again, a thread on a debate forum. I have every right to express my opinion on the subject of mothering on a debate forum. And for the record, I have one edge over you when it comes to knowledge about mothering -- 31 years of experience. As for "wine drinking," did you see me state anywhere on the DIR forum that I am opposed to any of the most minute details of the Word of Wisdom? No, you did not. Did I make excuses for this supposedly most grievous of sins? No I did not. I simply admitted to one of my several "shortcomings." I wouldn't expect you to understand the word "shortcoming" since you obviously have none. Oh that we might all be blessed with your infinite perfection. :rolleyes:

:biglaugh:If that is not the single most ludicrous remark I've ever heard you make, I don't know what is. I have never in my life "openly criticized Church leadership." I have disagreed with some of their views on political issues. I have disagreed with one woman's view on parenting. I have never done this on the DIR forum. Since you have taken it upon yourself to attack me personally, you might as well know that I intend to respond to every last personal attack with a counter-attack, beginning right now:

For every person who is impressed by your example of what it means to be a good member of the Church, there are easily a hundred who are turned off by it. You are single-handedly turning every non-Mormon on RF against the Church. WAY TO GO, MAN! If and when this post gets deleted, and if and when I get an infraction for it, it will have been a small price to pay for the privilege of telling you to exactly what I think of you. At any rate, you can take your "concern" and shove it.

I never said that I was without fault. The difference between you and me is that I actually strive to do the things that are asked of me and acknowledge my mistakes as well as forsake them. Idon't make excuses and say "well I hope I get points for doing good things over here" while at the same time doing bad things over "there".

You cannot ask for forgiveness for one thing while still participating other things that are contrary to the gospel. At least that is what we are taught in church. I am surprised someone as old as you still doesn't get that.
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
Matthew 15.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]“Before the jailor came in, his boy brought in some water, and said the guard wanted some wine. Joseph gave Dr. Richards two dollars to give the guard; but the guard said one was enough, and would take no more. “The guard immediately sent for a bottle of wine, pipes, and two small papers of tobacco; and one of the guards brought them into the jail soon after the jailor went out. Dr. Richards uncorked the bottle, and presented a glass to Joseph, who tasted, as brother and the Doctor, and the bottle was then given to the guard, who turned to go out.” (History of the Church, Vol. 6, page 616)

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Sometime after dinner we sent for some wine. It has been reported by some that this was taken as a sacrament. It was no such thing,; our spirits were generally dull and heavy, and it was sent for to revive us.... I believe we all drank of the wine, and gave some to one or two of the prison guards." (John Taylor, in History of the Church, Vol. 7, page 101)[/FONT]

And so did the Nephites. Your point? I still would have said "what the hell is wrong with you?"
 

silvermoon383

Well-Known Member
And he would have answered "What the hell is wrong with you?"

Madhatter, you keep insisting that everything is fair and even when it fact it is not. Different people were under different obligations in the past 2 centuries. The same bit of advice doesn't work on everyone, nor does the same solution work on every problem. I have to be treated differently than my partner in my church duties, and I have to treat my senior design project group differently than I do my Dungeons and Dragons group.

Hell, the Church knows this, and in my opinion, some of the differences they use when dealing with different people are both good, and bad. For example: just in this morning's conference session there was a talk and the speaker explicitly told the YSA women that the Lord is mindful of their single status and that they won't be denied any blessings. I've heard this all the time. But now, when I heard that this morning I thought to myself "What about us guys? There are plenty of us that are single too, and in many cases it's not due to laziness."

At risk of derailing this thread I'll ask it anyways. Why to the women get a pat on the head and a reassurance that "everything will be ok" but us guys get stern looks and rebukes of "Why aren't you marrying the single sisters?" despite the fact that many of us are trying to court, but constantly get turned down?
 
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zomg

I aim to misbehave!
And so did the Nephites. Your point? I still would have said "what the hell is wrong with you?"
Jesus drank wine. Would you say "what the hell is wrong with you?" to your savior?

Obviously, the word of wisdom didn't exist during the Nephites' time. Nor Jesus'. Even the LDS church today doesn't follow the word of wisdom as described in D and C 89.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
And he would have answered "What the hell is wrong with you?"
:biglaugh:Seriously, I bet he would have.
At risk of derailing this thread I'll ask it anyways.
At the risk of derailing this thread? :eek: Silvermoon, this thread was derailed 75 posts ago when MadHatter decided it was his responsibility to call me to repentence. :facepalm: The thread is now moving along quite nicely. He has now expressed his regrets that he was not able to call Joseph Smith to repentence as well. By the time the mods get around to this thread, he'll have told us how he wished he could have called the Savior to repentence, too.

Why to the women get a pat on the head and a reassurance that "everything will be ok" but us guys get stern looks and rebukes of "Why aren't you marrying the single sisters?" despite the fact that many of us are trying to court, but constantly get turned down?
I don't know how old you are, Silvermoon, but my parents were single until my dad was 35 years old. So hang in there. As far as any woman turning you down, it's her loss.
 
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zomg

I aim to misbehave!
You know, madhatter, it's people like you who remind me why I don't miss the LDS church AT ALL.

So go ahead and cast those stones at Katz. Jesus would be so proud of you!
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
I have not cast stones. I am sure she is still a nice person and all. I just have to ask "what is going through your mind that makes you think it is O.K.?" It just makes no sense.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
*** Staff Advisory ***

Reminder: this thread is in the Latter-Day Saints Discuss Individual Religions forum. This means two things:

- Non-Mormons are not permitted to post in this thread, except for respectful questions.

- Debating is not permitted in this thread. This includes debates by Mormon members.

If you want to discuss this topic but can't abide by these requirements of the DIR Forums rules, then please start a thread elsewhere, such as General Religious Debates or Same Faith Debates.

Thank you for your cooperation.

9-10ths_Penguin
Staff
 

imbobbbb

Member
My what a fun thread this has turned into:rolleyes:.I haven't haven't visited this site in nearly 2 years and see what fun ive been missing.I have been following Katzs posts on another site though and despite her 3 glasses of wine annually I still consider her a fine example of what lds members should be,and light years ahead of me....even though I dont drink at all.:D

There is no point in trying to logicly justify all of the WOW.It is 'church policy' whether it makes sense or not.Parts of it are given great importance by the church,like not drinking 'certain hot drinks' later defined as tea and coffee but not initially named specificly at the time although they could have been.Other parts,which seem to be more important to health,involving eating meat sparingly and a lot of vegetables are somewhat ignored.It is what it is.When God puts me in charge,(yeah right),i'll clarify things a bit...until then i'll just go along with the program as I understand it and let others do the same.

If anyone wants to pretend that logicly... iced tea and iced coffee are hot drinks and hot chocolate,hot chicken broth are cold drinks....well be my guest.If God isn't the 'author of confusion' then somebody didn't write something down initially as clearly as he should have.It really doesn't matter if it makes sense,the policy is clear even if the doctrine as written isn't.

If anyone wants to expand it in their life to include heat pasteurized milk,chocolate ice cream,coca cola,mouthwash,white bread and bacon....feel free.If some want to stick to locusts and honey it won't bother me.I'll follow my own conscience on the issues.:)
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
My what a fun thread this has turned into:rolleyes:.I haven't haven't visited this site in nearly 2 years and see what fun ive been missing.I have been following Katzs posts on another site though and despite her 3 glasses of wine annually I still consider her a fine example of what lds members should be,and light years ahead of me....even though I dont drink at all.:D

There is no point in trying to logicly justify all of the WOW.It is 'church policy' whether it makes sense or not.Parts of it are given great importance by the church,like not drinking 'certain hot drinks' later defined as tea and coffee but not initially named specificly at the time although they could have been.Other parts,which seem to be more important to health,involving eating meat sparingly and a lot of vegetables are somewhat ignored.It is what it is.When God puts me in charge,(yeah right),i'll clarify things a bit...until then i'll just go along with the program as I understand it and let others do the same.

If anyone wants to pretend that logicly... iced tea and iced coffee are hot drinks and hot chocolate,hot chicken broth are cold drinks....well be my guest.If God isn't the 'author of confusion' then somebody didn't write something down initially as clearly as he should have.It really doesn't matter if it makes sense,the policy is clear even if the doctrine as written isn't.

If anyone wants to expand it in their life to include heat pasteurized milk,chocolate ice cream,coca cola,mouthwash,white bread and bacon....feel free.If some want to stick to locusts and honey it won't bother me.I'll follow my own conscience on the issues.:)
imbobbbb! Fancy meeting you here. I never realized you were a member of RF. And come to think of it, I seldom see you over on C-D either. What's up with that? Anyway, it's good to see you. I sure wish you'd post more often. I always enjoy reading what you have to say. :yes:
 
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