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Taoist and Confucian divisions

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
Hm. Nobody has answered.

Anyone mind if I do?


For Taoism I know of:

Shenism (Folk Taoism; Traditional Chinese Folk Religion)
Religious Taoism
And then we have what's called as Philosophical Taoism. I'll leave Taoism to be defined more by the Taoists though. As much of a connection I have with it, due to semantics over "God" and its relationship to Tao, I don't really consider myself a Taoist.

With Confucianism, we have Confucianism, of course. :D

We have different sets, but they are usually just involving merging of ideas. Bushido, for example, merges Confucianism, Shinto, and Buddhism.

We have Neo-Confucianism, which is a less spiritual version of Confucianism.
We also have New Confucianism, which is kind of similar.

And we also have Religious Confucianism. It's becoming quite popular in China, apparently, which is cool. I identify quite heavily with Religious Confucianism.

I'll delete this if it's unwanted though.
 
With any institution (yes, Taoism has become an institution, at least aspects have) there will be different modes of expression and exploration.

There are separate sects in Taoism (not a complete list):
Ch'uan-chen (Completely Real)
Tianshi (Heavenly Master)
Mao-shan (Mount Mao)
Ling-pao (Marvelous Treasure)

Also, there are different terms for the religions and philosophical faces of Taosim, Daojiao and Daojia respectively.

I have recently read an article in which the author point blank called anyone who said Taoism wasn't a religion was an idiot. Oh well.

Just remember: the way which can be shown is not the eternal way.
 
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lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
For Taoism I know of:

Shenism (Folk Taoism; Traditional Chinese Folk Religion)
Religious Taoism
And then we have what's called as Philosophical Taoism.
I don't think these are sects so much as different ways that people have categorized the different aspects of Taoism.
 

Leftimies

Dwelling in the Principle
As a Religious Confucian myself, this question is of great interest to me.

First of all, it ****** me off when I hear certain self-established Western geniuses claim that Confucianism isn't a "real religion". It is, end of story, moving on.

Now, there certainly are divisions within Taoism and Confucianism, or varying "schools of thought", which also vary regionally (f.e the differences between Korean Confucianism and Chinese one). But to which degree we separate Taoism and Confucianism themselves from each other, is also a question of great importance. Are the both actually two sides of same coin, to a degree? Does Confucianism serve as authoritative and legal backbone of a yet undefined religion that Taoism, too, serves as a spiritual guide? I think there is a division, though, as Confucianism really only recognizes the authority of Heaven, and to a degree, its emperor, the undivided and just Shangdi (who, too, was later replaced by Heaven only).

It has always intrigued me...can I regard Temple of Heaven in Beijing as something holy for me, a Confucian, even though its designated as Taoist sacred site? It is the same deity or universal transcendent force I adhere to, after all.

I'd dare to claim that the relationship of the two religions is a very complex and interesting one.
 
The Taoist There are many different "schools". For example, all true science, Zheng Yi School, and Shangqing is a couple I remember from my history lessons. They are the influence of Chinese culture in various ways. Whole truth and Chinese medicine, while Shang-Qing impacted on Chinese Buddhism.

There is also the Chinese Folk Religion which includes Taoism, Buddhism and Confucianism combined. They also worship the natural gods and spiritual ancestors. Almost each small village in many parts of China will have its own clan's God, city's God, etc.

In Confucianism there is Old Confucianism and New Confucianism in China but I think other countries have adopted their own idea in Confucius' writngs. Personally I do not like Confucianism so much. Because In the Confucianism thinking, a "good woman", has to be beneath her father, her husband and even her son. The practice of "bound feet" comes from Confucian ideas. Also in terms of government good citizens are only supposed to obey rulers instead of in the democratic system where rulers listen to citizens.
 

Leftimies

Dwelling in the Principle
In Confucianism there is Old Confucianism and New Confucianism in China but I think other countries have adopted their own idea in Confucius' writngs. Personally I do not like Confucianism so much. Because In the Confucianism thinking, a "good woman", has to be beneath her father, her husband and even her son. The practice of "bound feet" comes from Confucian ideas. Also in terms of government good citizens are only supposed to obey rulers instead of in the democratic system where rulers listen to citizens.

Now what you said about the relationships in Confucianism, isn't quite as straightforward as you make it sound, and thus, not even really true. I understand you easily get such an impression, though.

In Confucianism, the Mandate of Heaven is not simply a concept, its a sacred idea, which flows throughout all the relationships concerned. It means that the father, the husband, the leader of a nation...they all are, while superior to their son, wife and citizens, responsible for their actions to Heaven. their mind needs to be pure, their virtue perfected, guiding wisdom filled with good intentions before they can attain the "superior" position. if these requirements are met, then they have the mandate of heaven to act as superior. if they are not met, and the supposed superior acts abusively, a good son doesn't have to obey, good wife doesn't have to submit, and a nation may revolt against their emperor.

THIS is very important to recognize.

Son/Father, Wife/Husband, Citizen/Ruler all follow same idea:
The holder of lower rank obeys the good counsel of the elder, and helps him in matters at hand. The holder of higher rank takes good care of the beforementioned, and ensures his/hers safety, economical standing and future.
 
Now what you said about the relationships in Confucianism, isn't quite as straightforward as you make it sound, and thus, not even really true. I understand you easily get such an impression, though.

In Confucianism, the Mandate of Heaven is not simply a concept, its a sacred idea, which flows throughout all the relationships concerned. It means that the father, the husband, the leader of a nation...they all are, while superior to their son, wife and citizens, responsible for their actions to Heaven. their mind needs to be pure, their virtue perfected, guiding wisdom filled with good intentions before they can attain the "superior" position. if these requirements are met, then they have the mandate of heaven to act as superior. if they are not met, and the supposed superior acts abusively, a good son doesn't have to obey, good wife doesn't have to submit, and a nation may revolt against their emperor.

THIS is very important to recognize.

Son/Father, Wife/Husband, Citizen/Ruler all follow same idea:
The holder of lower rank obeys the good counsel of the elder, and helps him in matters at hand. The holder of higher rank takes good care of the beforementioned, and ensures his/hers safety, economical standing and future.

I am a Chinese, so I understand Confucianism, as it is in practice. In reality, Confucianism is the thoughts of sex discrimination, because it teaches that men are smarter than women, because a person's intelligence, he is the head of the family. In practice even if a woman shows more intelligence then her husband she cannot be the head of a family.

In addition, some idea of racial prejudice are in Confucianism. The Confucian tradition is deeply rooted in ethnocentric attitude. According to most Confucian sholars, China is the center of the universe, and the Zhou Kingdom is the height of civilization. Confucian books say "barbarians" will automatically think that the teachings of Confucius, this is the truth, of which China must conquer other countries. Even the most important work, "Analects of Confucius", China is superior to every other country.

So why in modern times, should it be accepted? Today we know that men, women, black or white is all equal. This is the point that I objected to.
 

Leftimies

Dwelling in the Principle
I am a Chinese, so I understand Confucianism, as it is in practice. In reality, Confucianism is the thoughts of sex discrimination, because it teaches that men are smarter than women, because a person's intelligence, he is the head of the family. In practice even if a woman shows more intelligence then her husband she cannot be the head of a family.

In addition, some idea of racial prejudice are in Confucianism. The Confucian tradition is deeply rooted in ethnocentric attitude. According to most Confucian sholars, China is the center of the universe, and the Zhou Kingdom is the height of civilization. Confucian books say "barbarians" will automatically think that the teachings of Confucius, this is the truth, of which China must conquer other countries. Even the most important work, "Analects of Confucius", China is superior to every other country.

So why in modern times, should it be accepted? Today we know that men, women, black or white is all equal. This is the point that I objected to.

Yes, there is practice and theory. Two separate things. In abrahamic religions, you see an order "don't kill" and "let God be the judge", yet there were at certain points state-sponsored killing in Christianity and Islam in the name of their God. Buddhists imposed inquisition on Christians in Japan. The same "superiority" complex arose for Christian Europe, who saw Blacks and "Yellows" as inferior races that indeed were called "barbarians", even though Bible is very strict about everyone being equal.

People make religions be what they want them to be. Rather, look at how much from what you blame on Confucianism is really Chinese cultural mindset and tradition pre-dating Confucianism. I'd dare to claim this is the case.

And racist...i dont really think so. Confucianism's big thing was that human's quality, let it be a commoner or ruler, was based on his/hers merits, not his/hers bloodline. Race isn't defined by merits, but bloodline, which is thus rendered - in theory - irrelevant for Confucian doctrine. Not only race is thus rendered irrelevant, but also gender...as long as the merits are pure.

While I am not Chinese, I pretty much spend all my free wake hours researching and studying its culture, I've been this way for many years now. So let me speak from years of experience in that regard. Just my two cents.
 

User14

Member
We have Neo-Confucianism, which is a less spiritual version of Confucianism.

My understanding was that Neo-Confucianism was more religious, or at least more metaphysical, in order to compete with encroaching Buddhism.
 
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