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Tao Te Ching Ch1 part 1 ~ as I see it ~

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The character 道 (Tao) is not necessarily related to Daoism. ‘Tao’ is a conceptual term used by all schools of thought (Tao, the Way, as image suggesting how things actually exist).

I disagree The concept of the 道 (Tao in Chinese culture relates back to the writings of Taoism and the Tao Te Ching. The concept of the Way of the Tao is rooted in Taoism.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Yes.

E.g. they both have a personified Deity (Daoism the ‘Mother’; Christianity the ‘Father’).

Taoism does not have a personified deity. The use of metaphors such as 'mother' is symbolic of the attributes of the Tao, which as noted has attributes of both male and female.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The character 道 (Tao) predates Taoism.
道 - Wiktionary

I add that the late Neolithic (Jade Age) and Bronze Age religious beliefs were evolving from Animism and anthropomorphic polytheism to various forms of Monotheism/Deism like other cultures of the world like the Middle East. The Advent of Taoism represents the beginning of the end of ancient religious beliefs and considered beliefs such as the dragon more symbolic. This is the time that the present meaning of the 'Tao' begins as the unknown unnamed 'Source' of our existence. The view in the Orient for the Tao range from simply the unknown to a Deistic view to a Theistic view of the Source.
 
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Thea

account deleted
The character itself may be older it is not clear how the character was used. As far as the reference it may have had mundane meanings such as; explain, talk about, or road.

The following quote shows that the use of ‘Tao’ as “the right way to live and organize society”, predates the writing of the Tao Te Ching.

From:
‘What is it like to be a philosopher’ Interview with Bryan van Norden
What Is It Like to Be a Philosopher?

[I put in the line breaks]
[Start quote]

... about the meaning of the Chinese term “dao,”

usually translated as “Way.” You see, in its earliest use “dao” refers to a path or road,

and then by an obvious metaphorical extension it comes to mean a “way” of doing something, especially the right way to live and organize society.

By metonymy it then comes to refer to a linguistic account of a way, or the right way, to do something.

Now, eventually “dao” also comes to refer to some sort of metaphysical entity that is responsible for both the way the universe is and the way it ought to be.

However, there was a fad a few years ago of people arguing that “dao” never referred to a metaphysical entity in the seminal period when Confucianism and Daoism first originated. I knew this revisionist claim was obviously false, and so I did a search of occurrences of the expression in early texts, and I noticed something particularly interesting about the use of the term in

passage 25 of the Daodejing:

There is a thing that is amorphous yet complete,
Born before Heaven and Earth.
Still! Alone!
Standing alone and unchanging,
Going everywhere without being in danger.
It can be considered the mother of Heaven and Earth.
I do not know its name.
I bestow upon it the courtesy name of “Way.”

This passage settles the issue that was under debate because it unambiguously identifies the Way as a cosmogonic principle that existed before and created the physical universe (“Heaven and Earth”).

However, it is also interesting because it states that there is no “name” for this entity, so the author bestows upon it the “courtesy name” of the “Way.” A “courtesy name” (zi, also called a “style”) is a polite name you use to address someone whom you are not on familiar terms with.

Consequently, this passage records the origin of the appropriation of the term “Way” to refer to this metaphysical principle that is “the mother of Heaven and Earth.”

[End quote]
 
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Thea

account deleted
I meant overlap of meaning in "Logos" and "Tao".
Righto, thanks for letting me know. Yes that I agree with. :)

And so does Sinologist Bryan Van Norden:
“This passage [the start of Tao Te Ching chapter 25] settles the issue that was under debate because it unambiguously identifies the Way as a cosmogonic principle that existed before and created the physical universe (“Heaven and Earth”).”
From: What Is It Like to Be a Philosopher?

What remains is the very different choice of metaphor for the Creator (Daoism the ‘Mother’; Christianity the ‘Father’). I think this does make for very different belief systems.
 
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Thea

account deleted
Taoism does not have a personified deity. …

A Creator that is considered the ‘Mother’, is a personified Deity.

Re Creator:
Sinologist Bryan Van Norden:
“This passage [the start of Tao Te Ching chapter 25] settles the issue that was under debate because it unambiguously identifies the Way as a cosmogonic principle that existed before and created the physical universe (“Heaven and Earth”).”
From: What Is It Like to Be a Philosopher?

Re Mother:
Tao Te Ching chapter 25:
… It can be considered the mother of Heaven and Earth. …
 
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Thea

account deleted
… The use of metaphors such as 'mother' is symbolic of the attributes of the Tao, which as noted has attributes of both male and female.

‘Mother’ is uniquely female; it clearly does not represent “both male and female”.
 
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Thea

account deleted
Taoism does not have a personified deity. The use of metaphors such as 'mother' is symbolic of the attributes of the Tao, which as noted has attributes of both male and female.
In Christianity the use of ‘Father’ is also a metaphor. By analogy you then also see the Christian God as not a personified Deity.
 
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Thea

account deleted
… The view in the Orient for the Tao range from simply the unknown to a Deistic view to a Theistic view of the Source.

:D that was my initial statement
The character 道 (Tao) is not necessarily related to Daoism. ‘Tao’ is a conceptual term used by all schools of thought (Tao, the Way, as image suggesting how things actually exist).
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
‘Mother’ is uniquely female; it clearly does not represent “both male and female”.
. . . The Tao in the symbol Yin and Yang do represent the balance between male and female. No in Taoism the Tao is not uniquely anything and it is described. 'If some claims to know the Tao it is not the Tao.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
:D that was my initial statement

. . . but you persist in insisting that the Tao is the personification of the Mother.. I previously explained the use of symbolic and use of metaphors in the Chinese language text for Taoism, and you continue to insist on the literal interpretation, which is in contradiction of the understanding of the Tao in the Orient.

ALL the philosophies and movements of the Way post-date the advent of Taoism as described. If you consider the evolution of Middle East Abrahamic religions, The Neolithic and early Bronze Age cultures of the Middle East were dominantly Animistic and anthropomorphic polytheism.

No, the references DO NOT demonstrate the early spiritual definition of the Tao before Laozi and Taoism. They only demonstrate the existence of the character, which very likely had more mundane definitions referred to in the reference. The early Neolithic and Bronze Age cultures of China were dominantly Animistic and anthropomorphic polytheism. The belief of the Tao as in Taoism cannot be dated to this early time in China.
 
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Thea

account deleted
. . . The Tao in the symbol Yin and Yang do represent the balance between male and female. No in Taoism the Tao is not uniquely anything and it is described. 'If some claims to know the Tao it is not the Tao.

:D
If as you say, “If some claims to know the Tao it is not the Tao”,
then your claim, “The Tao … represent the balance between male and female”
is not the Tao.
:p
 
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Thea

account deleted
. . . but you persist in insisting that the Tao is the personification of the Mother…

The character 道 (Tao) is used by various schools of thought in different meanings.

This thread is about a chapter of the Tao Te Ching (see OP), therefore ‘Tao’ in this thread refers to the meaning of it in the Tao Te Ching.

‘Tao’ in the Tao Te Ching is the ‘Mother’, a personification (see previous posts).
 
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Thea

account deleted
… They only demonstrate the existence of the character, which very likely had more mundane definitions referred to in the reference. …

I already refuted this:
The following quote shows that the use of ‘Tao’ as “the right way to live and organize society”, predates the writing of the Tao Te Ching.

From:
‘What is it like to be a philosopher’ Interview with Bryan van Norden
What Is It Like to Be a Philosopher?

[I put in the line breaks]
[Start quote]

... about the meaning of the Chinese term “dao,”

usually translated as “Way.” You see, in its earliest use “dao” refers to a path or road,

and then by an obvious metaphorical extension it comes to mean a “way” of doing something, especially the right way to live and organize society.

By metonymy it then comes to refer to a linguistic account of a way, or the right way, to do something.

Now, eventually “dao” also comes to refer to some sort of metaphysical entity that is responsible for both the way the universe is and the way it ought to be.

However, there was a fad a few years ago of people arguing that “dao” never referred to a metaphysical entity in the seminal period when Confucianism and Daoism first originated. I knew this revisionist claim was obviously false, and so I did a search of occurrences of the expression in early texts, and I noticed something particularly interesting about the use of the term in

passage 25 of the Daodejing:

There is a thing that is amorphous yet complete,
Born before Heaven and Earth.
Still! Alone!
Standing alone and unchanging,
Going everywhere without being in danger.
It can be considered the mother of Heaven and Earth.
I do not know its name.
I bestow upon it the courtesy name of “Way.”

This passage settles the issue that was under debate because it unambiguously identifies the Way as a cosmogonic principle that existed before and created the physical universe (“Heaven and Earth”).

However, it is also interesting because it states that there is no “name” for this entity, so the author bestows upon it the “courtesy name” of the “Way.” A “courtesy name” (zi, also called a “style”) is a polite name you use to address someone whom you are not on familiar terms with.

Consequently, this passage records the origin of the appropriation of the term “Way” to refer to this metaphysical principle that is “the mother of Heaven and Earth.”

[End quote]
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
:D
If as you say, “If some claims to know the Tao it is not the Tao”,
then your claim, “The Tao … represent the balance between male and female”
is not the Tao.
:p

These are attributes of the Tao and not the Tao. The physical nature of our existence are attributes of the Tao, but not the Tao.

A reflection in the mirror is not the object reflected.
 
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