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Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by firedragon, Aug 19, 2021.

  1. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    You are normally so meticulous with facts, that this surprised me.

    As someone who has studied the Chisti tariqa (order) and the silsila (chain of transmission) of the Chisti order and it's principles especially as exemplified by Hazrat Inayat Khan, I find it an error to refer to the Deobandi as "Sufi/Deobandi" in spite of them claiming to have picked up a bit from the Chisti order.

    the Deobandis have generally been vociferous critics of Sufi devotional practices, like the saint’s death anniversary (‘urs), garnering them a reputation for being “anti” Sufi, even as they identify as Sufis; Understanding the Deoband Movement - Maydan


     
  2. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    I never said that. Migration from one country is sometimes culture. You should also note that lower rates of migration does not always mean its a fantastic place to live. India as a country has a heartbreaking level of poverty. But its predominantly not the poor who migrate to the west, but the more educated and savvy. I mean predominantly. They are born into migration and they will kill, forge, run, fly, or swim to get to the west. So will Pakistanis.
     
  3. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Mate. It runs deeper than that. See, if you think just because some deobandi's are critical of Sufis that means the Afghans are never influenced by Sufi's, you are very very badly mistaken.

    I dont want to go too deep into this. Rumi was Afghani. Get into the politics, not just orders and sects Sun Rise.
    Pir Sayed Ahmad Gailani was Sufi. Sebghatullah was Sufi. The NLF was led by Sebghatullah, a Sufi pir. and Mahaz e Islami , was led by Pir Sayyed Ahmad Gailani, head of the Qadiri Sufi order. And the other factions like Unis Halis, Jamiathul Islamiayah, Etihad I islamiyah were both influenced by Sufi orders and the Deobandi background coming to them all the way from India, then Pakistan. You referred to the Christi Order. Pir Sayyed was Christi. Theologically the Deobandis are those who oppose Sufi's worship fundamentally. The main opposition is the Halarah and of course the wali yabd system, the Wilayah system, the imami system of the specific orders etc. But Afghanistan is them both. Even today. The influences of these orders are undeniable. Its not just theology Sun Rise, it is also a hell of a lot of politics.
     
  4. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    Sorry what was the relevance of pointing out India has the highest emigration in the world to @InvestigateTruth 's point about, "if they did not have problems in their own country, there wouldn't be too many of them wanting to scape to the west."?

    Perhaps I miss inferred that you were implying that Indians have the most problems in their own country.
     
  5. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    I am no migration expert Daniel. But I know that Indians are generally poor, while they have some of the riches men in the world as well. More than all of that it was a British colony, which naturally always means they have a culture of migration. Pakistan was born out of India along with the departure of the British. Even Bangladesh. All three of these countries have a migration culture. 18 million Indians are legally migrated to other countries right at this moment. Comparing populations, China has a bigger population but are almost half of that in terms of migration. So it is not just the size of the population that correlates or causes. Also you should note that there are about 4 million Indians working and living in the Emirates. And that's only the emirates. If you take the whole world, its uncounted. Also Indian illegal immigrants are not counted but maybe the biggest. More than Russians, Chinese etc. China is a dictatorship, India is a democracy. Why are more Indians outside their country in comparison?

    There are people who run away to another country and claim asylum due to a problem in their country. They would claim that they were part of a resistance group, and were part of an assassination or something of the sort and that they ran away looking for protection from vengeance. This is very very common. There are cases where these same people who claimed they were part of a resistance group had gone to a country like Malaysia and settled down, after some number of years this resistance group is branded "terrorists", then since this guy who migrated has claimed he was a part of this group, he gets arrested at some point simply because his excuse was he was part of this group to run away. Of course there are those like Ergan Caner and Shabad Walid if I got the name right who supposedly were part of direct terrorist groups who ran to America or England but no one even questions them. ;)

    ITs not that simple.
     
  6. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

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    Well since your on Godwin now, I'd equate the legitimacy of the Nazi party acquiring their own country and being recognized for it. They are still human after all.
     
  7. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Who is Godwin?
     
  8. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

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  9. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    Education.

    Which is kind of hard when the barbarians are in power.

    It's very much fine to help in a revolt. But the people must revolt first. It must be their initiative.
    Very much like how IS was defeated. The locals were fierce and brave in their resistance. And very very motivated.

    Without that, any "intervention" will be unsuccessful in the long term.

    As a roman slave once said in tv show : "Freedom is not something that can be given or granted to you. It's something you must take for yourself."

    If authority "grants" you freedom, then it is a "favor". A "privilege". One that can be revoked by those same authorities. Not so when freedom rather is something that you demand as a people.

    This is the fundamental difference. In authoritarian regimes, the people are in service of, and at the mercy of, those in power. In democracies, it is the other way round.

    In authoritarian regimes, power is demanded and freedom is granted.
    In democracies, power is granted and freedom is demanded.

    And that which is granted, is revokable.
     
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  10. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    To play advocate of the devil here....

    How "legitimate" is a government, if the entire political system around it was pretty much imposed upon them by a foreign power?

    Let's be honest here... think about our current secular democracies.

    Picture the west in the year 1000 or whatevs.
    Now imagine that some army of heathens invades to "bring freedom and democracy".
    Do you think it would end well?

    I don't.

    I do think freedom and secular democracy is and must be the end-goal, but the path towards it is equally important, if not more.

    The people must rise up and demand freedom. If you want to speed things up, you can only try and plant seeds by spreading ideas, education, information,... But it must always come from themselves eventually. It must be their own initiative.
     
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  11. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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  12. RESOLUTION

    RESOLUTION Active Member

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    Hello Firedragon,

    What can the Taliban bring to this country now? Had they surrendered and brought a meaningful end which the British and American forces leaders could have made into a reconciled country then the future would have been hopeful. No one trusts the Taliban and all their promises to treat women correctly is falling on deaf ears. People are afraid of them and fear is never a good place to start taking over a country. Till the Taliban show they mean what they say and let those stuck there out then no one will help them.
     
  13. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    We do try to live in peace with other nations we disagree with.
    The West cannot be the moral watchdog for the world and enforce things with war.
    We have a lot of our own moral issues to deal with really in Australia and no doubt the story is the same everywhere.
     
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  14. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    No clue.

    Women will be oppressed for sure. No escape from that. But if people believe the U.S went there to liberate the women you are sadly mistaken.

    Nope. It doesn't work that way. Pakistan, Russia and the U.S (If they gather pieces) should insist upon a democratic government. You cant wait till the Taliban shows anything. It has to external pressure because Taliban now knows they cannot live on isolated. They knew it then, they know it better now and now times are very different.
     
  15. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Northern scum

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    Yes, although the degree obviously varies.

    "In total six men were allegedly shot, some in the head, and three were tortured to death.

    According to witness accounts, one man was strangled with his own scarf and had his arm muscles sliced off. Another's body was shot to pieces."


    - Afghanistan: Taliban 'tortured and massacred' men from Hazara minority
     
  16. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    What is your suggestion on what could be done if anything?
     
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  17. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Northern scum

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    Bombing doesn't seem to work so perhaps, ultimately, education is the key. It will be a very long road though.
     
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  18. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    Brother, I was writing specifically of the deobandi and not Afghans in general since you used "Sufi/deobandi". I would expect there to be valid existing sufi orders there just as I expect there to be in Iran and elsewhere including in the USA.

    And I also accept that there is influence by sufism in the region. Someone might be influenced by sufism without being personally a sufi.That's the root of my comment.

    If you were to write that the deobandi were influenced by some sufi thoughts, I would accept that.

    I know Rumi was originally from Afghanistan.

    I noted orders etc because what a chain of transmission is all about is the recognition that a student has achieved a certain level and is now an authorized replacement in an order. Anyone can claim anything and call themselves whatever they like but without the recognition by one who has achieved, what they are about is not real sufism because real sufism has to have a connection to the Source via a pir or wali as the head of the order.

    Politics is not what sufis are about. What sufis are about is the internal journey. Since you mentioned Rumi, this:

    Cross and Christians, end to end, i examined. He was not on the Cross. I went to the Hindu Temple, to the ancient pagoda. In none of them there was any sign. To the heights of Herat I went and to Kandhar, I looked. He was not on the elevation not on the low lands.

    Resolutely I went to summit of the fabulous mountain of Ka'af. There was only the dwelling of the Anqa bird.I went to Kaaba at Mecca. He was not there. I asked him from Avicenna the philosopher. He was beyond the range of Avicenna, I looked into my own heart. In that place I saw him.

    He was in no other place.


    Pir-O-Murshid Hazrat Inayat Khan (in the Chisti lineage) in "Freedom of the Sufi":

    Sufism cannot be called a religion because it is free from principles, distinctions and differences, the very basis on which religions are founded; neither can it be called a philosophy, because philosophy teaches the study of nature in its qualities and varieties, whereas Sufism teaches unity. Therefore it may best be called simply the training of the view. The word Sufi implies purity, and purity contains two qualities. Pure means unmixed with any other element, or in other words that which exists in its own element, unalloyed and unstained. The second quality of purity is great adaptability.

    Such is also the nature of the Sufi. In the first place he purifies himself by keeping the vision of God constantly before him, not allowing the stains of earthly differences and distinctions to be mirrored upon his heart, nor good or bad society, nor intercourse with high- or low- class people. Nor can a faith or a belief ever interfere with his purity.


     
  19. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Sun Rise. I gave you many Sufi's, all of them waging war in the same fight. Rumi was not important. Dont focus on what Sufism is, and every one knows this.

    Peace.
     
  20. Bird123

    Bird123 Well-Known Member

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    Aren't these no more than excuses not to try? Sometimes adversity will define the parameters of which one could never choose to do.

    It doesn't matter what everyone else does. It's what you choose to do that counts.

    In time, every soul will Discover for themselves that the price for hate will always be too high. Hate, payback and revenge only continue the misery for all. Have not you Discovered the petty things that mankind holds so dear never brings good results?

    Years ago I read a book on the history of ancient wars and the changes after. It turns out that those who were conquered created much more change than the conquerors. Influencing from the position of weakness can create much more change because those with power do not see the weak as a threat and tend to listen much more. Don't you see? A Big Stick isn't the answer. Instead of hate and revenge, bring a carrot.

    God created this world so that Brains will win in the end. This is the tool which will overcome all adversities.

    That's what I see. It's very clear!!
     
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