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Tahrif (corruption) of the Torah and Bible

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
The Quran states that Jewish and Christian scriptures were corrupted. This OpEd is about charges from before the Quran and mostly is about debates within Judaism and Christianity.
Tahrif Charges Prior To The Qur’an – OpEd

Rabbi Elazar ben Yossi HaGelili who lived in the first half of the 2nd century C.E. said: “I said to the Cuthite scribes: You falsified the Torah and gained nothing from that. For you wrote “near the terebinths of Moreh near Shechem,” [“near Shechem” being an addition by the Cuthites to the Samaritan Torah]. (Sifre on Deuteronomy piska 56)...
...
Organized Judaism from the Rabbinic period onwards always considered the Masoretic Text as the only (kosher) text of the Bible, and thus the “original text” of the Hebrew Bible. The rabbis describe the Samaritan Torah as a falsification (Tahrif) of the Jewish Torah (Jerusalem Talmud Sotah 7.3; Babylonian Talmud Sotah 33b; and Sanhedrin 90b) and the few Samaritan additions to its text were never quoted in rabbinic literature.
,,,
Independently, Mani. who lived in Persia from 216-274 C.E. and was the founding prophet of the Manichaean religion, charged all the other then existing sacred scriptures with tahrif
...
A principal critique Mani levels against some of his prophetic predecessors is that they failed to insure the accurate registration and preservation of their writings, and so these writings; which eventually evolve into the canonical scriptures associated with religions like Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, and Christianity; were corrupted and falsified by later generations of disciples and followers.
...
Christian polemicists have used tahrif claims since the time of Justin Martyr (c.100-165 C.E.), who was born of pagan parents. By 132 C.E. he had become a Christian and by the 140’s began charging Jews with the alteration of those portions of Jewish scripture which purportedly predicted the advent of Messiah Jesus and the Christian Church.
 

Hold

Day Dreamer
Premium Member
There are different Torahs???

How does this tie into Buddhism?
I believe there are two versions of some parts of the Torah. One written in Judah (under their King) and one written under another King in the north, not sure of the name of that kingdom, my guess is Israel....
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Tahrif (corruption) of the Torah and Bible

Reference signature of our friend @sun rise , please:
"Is this the end times?"

Sure it is, as End Time Reformer (1835-1908) of all revealed religions has come, I understand, please. Right?

Regards
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Salam

There was a person who was arguing against Quran saying it has logical problems during Imam Ali (a) time. Anyways, in the conversation, Imam Ali (a) tells him why "peace be upon the family of Yaseen" didn't say "the family of Mohammad" explicitly instead, and it was said by Imam Ali (a) it was so Quran does not get distorted like past revelations.

Past revelations were explicit in terms of succession, but were distorted for that reason. Today, we see Quran although is not explicit in saying "follow Ali", most of the Quran is about what exactly? When you understand the Quran, it's about the family of the reminder and how they bring you to God inwardly and outwardly, hiddenly with you as companions of the middle path journey and outwardly left a legacy of words and example to read about.

The Quran is written in a way though that when you contextualize all words, it's very vivid, clear, and manifest, however, it's been written in a way that per words of Imam Ali (a) in a way sorcery can distort in hard hearts and make them not understand it.

The Quran talks about "distorting words from their proper place" and "hard hearts" in this respect.

The Quran was written in a way, that it's not going to force you to accept what it clearly says. You can believe it's reminder or disbelieve.

What does this have to do with Torah and Gospels being distorted? Well, you find clues about the family of the reminder in those books as a concept, but also the opposite, that chosen ones can go astray and die evil even. And that it both emphasizes on it and says the opposite to it.

There is a big contradiction in this regard in the Bible.

The Gospels however, are not severely distorted. They are severely misunderstood and the hadiths of Ahlulbayt (a) have parallels to the Gospels and show that it's about Welayat.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Tahrif (corruption) of the Torah and Bible

I agree with the OP that both the Torah (OT) and the Bible (NT), as per the inner evidence in both of them, are corrupted, please. Right?
This has happened though both Moses, and (Jesus) Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah, were truthful messengers/prophets of G-d and they did receive direct Converse from G-d, I understand, please. Right?

Regards
 
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firedragon

Veteran Member
The Quran states that Jewish and Christian scriptures were corrupted. This OpEd is about charges from before the Quran and mostly is about debates within Judaism and Christianity.
Tahrif Charges Prior To The Qur’an – OpEd

Rabbi Elazar ben Yossi HaGelili who lived in the first half of the 2nd century C.E. said: “I said to the Cuthite scribes: You falsified the Torah and gained nothing from that. For you wrote “near the terebinths of Moreh near Shechem,” [“near Shechem” being an addition by the Cuthites to the Samaritan Torah]. (Sifre on Deuteronomy piska 56)...
...
Organized Judaism from the Rabbinic period onwards always considered the Masoretic Text as the only (kosher) text of the Bible, and thus the “original text” of the Hebrew Bible. The rabbis describe the Samaritan Torah as a falsification (Tahrif) of the Jewish Torah (Jerusalem Talmud Sotah 7.3; Babylonian Talmud Sotah 33b; and Sanhedrin 90b) and the few Samaritan additions to its text were never quoted in rabbinic literature.
,,,
Independently, Mani. who lived in Persia from 216-274 C.E. and was the founding prophet of the Manichaean religion, charged all the other then existing sacred scriptures with tahrif
...
A principal critique Mani levels against some of his prophetic predecessors is that they failed to insure the accurate registration and preservation of their writings, and so these writings; which eventually evolve into the canonical scriptures associated with religions like Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, and Christianity; were corrupted and falsified by later generations of disciples and followers.
...
Christian polemicists have used tahrif claims since the time of Justin Martyr (c.100-165 C.E.), who was born of pagan parents. By 132 C.E. he had become a Christian and by the 140’s began charging Jews with the alteration of those portions of Jewish scripture which purportedly predicted the advent of Messiah Jesus and the Christian Church.

Hi Sunrise. I would like to make a correction.

The Qur'an does not say the Jewish and Christian books were corrupted. I mean, not verbatim. Someone may interpret it that way if they wish. But honestly, what it says is that people wrote their own things and "CLAIMED" it was from God.

TAHRIF does not mean corruption or anything like that fundamentally. It actually means the omitting or the vanishing of the truth. We infer that it means corruption.

anyway, what I would like to say explicitly is that the Qur'an is explicit in it's saying that people wrote things on their own and claimed they were God's word.

Peace.

Edit: Oh. Sun Rise, I am guessing I should say this as well. The Bible as we know today is not separate from the so Calle Torah we now today. You know this of course. the bible is a collection of books that includes the Torah as we know of today.

Torah, Navvim, Ketuvim, Gospels, Pauls letters, other writings, etc, make the Bible. So the OP is fundamentally flawed in principle, although anyone understands your OP.
 
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Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Mostly just sharing. But also I was underlining that the charge of scriptural corruption predates Islam and I found it interesting.
If Text-A is different from Text-B, which one is "corrupted"? The implication is that one or the other is the original (the urtext) or is identical to that text. When we talk about the Torah, there is no urtext.

Furthermore, corruption is an interesting, weighted, and in this case polemical term. The online dictionary offers:

cor·rup·tion
  1. dishonest or fraudulent conduct by those in power, typically involving bribery.
  2. the process by which something, typically a word or expression, is changed from its original use or meaning to one that is regarded as erroneous or debased.
Textual differences are are worthy focus of study, but too often the claim of textual corruption is little more than a cheep smear.

If you are truly interested in the subject you might wish to look at the surprisingly readable Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible by Emanuel Tov. He does a rather good job addressing the pluriformity of early textual witnesses.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
People who have no knowledge on a subject but just wish to make some remark to feel good quite often do.
There's that irony again.
It happens when belief is mistaken for knowledge, &
is the basis for criticizing others' beliefs & non-beliefs.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Organized Judaism from the Rabbinic period onwards always considered the Masoretic Text as the only (kosher) text of the Bible, and thus the “original text” of the Hebrew Bible.

Just a correction here. The only thing Masoretic means is a Tanakh text that has the vowel markings and punciation added to where prior to the Mesorites Hebrew was only written with consonents and the Jewish reader knew, based on knowing the language, how to read what vowels and punctiation was naturally there.

Here is a video I did on this topic:


The rabbis describe the Samaritan Torah as a falsification (Tahrif) of the Jewish Torah (Jerusalem Talmud Sotah 7.3; Babylonian Talmud Sotah 33b; and Sanhedrin 90b) and the few Samaritan additions to its text were never quoted in rabbinic literature.

What is described in the Talmud about the Samaritan Torah is they described it with the word (זייפא) or a forgery. As described in Talmud Sotah 33b.

upload_2022-7-25_16-58-16.png


I actually have a copy of the Samaritan Torah and though there are 6,000 differences between a Jewish Torah and a Samaritan Torah the main differences, textually are the following:
  1. 95% of the 6,000 differences are the Samaritan use of different words that have the same meanings as words in the Jewish Torah.
    • These words difference don't change the meaning of the texts in either direction.
  2. About 4% of the differences are place where the Samaritan Torah matches the Jewish Oral Torah description of how to understand the Jewish written Torah.
    • I.e. the Jewish written text has a particular statement "X" and the oral Torah explains the statement in way "XYZ." The Samaritan Torah, instead of having "X" written in it, has "XYZ" written in it.
    • Thus, there are some researchers who feel that the Samaritan Torah in many of the 6,000 places matches Jewish commentary of the Torah. I.e. in one view the Samaritans wrote the commentary into their Torah scrolls.
  3. 1% of the differences are places where the Samaritan Torah makes the claim that the holy place for Israel is Mount Gerizim in Schechem.
upload_2022-7-25_17-17-56.png
 

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