Tae Kwon Do and Christianity

[ahunting]

I hope this is the right spot for this discussion. If not tell me. :sarcastic I apologize in adance for the length of this post.

I'm looking for some feedback on a problem I've encountered. I was taking Tae Kwon Do here in TN. I signed a contractual agreement to pay a certain dollar about down and so much a month for a year for classes. I signed up myself and another member of my family. I found that there are pictures of Jesus Christ at the facility. This facility is no simple community class, but a serious school of martial arts. The Grand Master is the President of the International Federation of Martial Arts. After attending several classes, we began to feel very uncomfortable before, during and after class because Christianity was discussed quite often. Before and after class didn't bother me. During class did. I am not a Christian. I am tolerant of Chritianity. I was Christian for most of my life. I believe every person has a path to follow and I do not discriminate anyone because of religion.The Master teaching the classes at this school (not the Grand Master but one of his students and the one who operates this one of two schools) has quite a following locally among the Christians who attend his church. It seems that the majority of people who attend his classes go to his church. We were told during class to pray to our "Lord". Events at his church were announced DURING class. These are just a couple examples. It felt very much like we had stepped into a martial arts class that was an extenstion of a church instead of one that boasts affiliation with the Federation.
Our instructer at one point invited us to his church's Easter service. I had no desire to discuss my religion with him. It was quite uncomfortable and had the ring of him trying to *save* me. I told him I wasn't sure what we were doing that day. He later asked again what we were doing and I told him spending the day with family.My family decided after continued comments in class and out that we just felt too uncomfortable there. I contacted the instructer and asked to be let out of our contract. He told me the reason I felt uncomfortable during these class discussions was perhaps because I was feeling *convicted*. He said any religion could come to class. He said religion was a part of Tae Kwon Do for 2000 years. True, but not Christianity...
End result after his spending 30 minutes on the phone attempting to convince me I shouldn't feel uncomfortable...
He did not even attempt to apologize that we felt uncomfortable. He did not say he would refrain from discussing Christianity in class. He said he could not let me out of my contract because it wasn't good for the teacher student relationship. He stated this is why they hired a finance company. The finance company says he can let me out at any time and they can't. They state that they work for him and they will do whatever he says.
I have not contacted the Grand Master at this time. Honestly, the thought of getting into another one of these discussions fills me with dread. I have not been back to class and I'm quite late in paying for our classes. This will affect my credit.
Well enough for now...ask if you have questions and please give me your feedback.
Thx.

 

[Scott1]

The Grand Master is a private owner of a business.... if he chooses talk about or promote Christianity, that is his right.

Your only recourse, as I see it, is to choose to go to another teacher who is not Christian, or at least does not mention it as part of the class.

My daughter and I changed classes to a Master that WAS a Catholic, and for that reason.... to each his own, right?

I wish you luck.

Scott

 

[Unedited]

Yes, he has the right to do what he wants, and since you've signed a contract, I don't see anyway for you to get out of paying. I don't understand why you're late in your payments. I understand that you don't want to pay, but you really should if it's affecting your credit. You may try talking to the guy some more, but you might just have to write it off as a loss.

 

[Prima]

Hmm. The only easy ways out you have are if

- attending church or a church function is required for the class
- you are noticably discriminated against as a result of your religion
- the teacher neglects to fulfill his contract (teaching you) in favor of proselythizing

Other than that, it's likely to be a long, unpleasant legal battle which you will probably lose

 

[Master Vigil]

Woah, ok, woah. I have been a martial artist for around 10 years. I'm sorry, while that may be his right, I believe it does not fit in a martial arts school. Save the "saving" for church. You're paying for martial arts instructions, not sermons. This is martial arts, if anything he should be teaching buddhism, taoism, shinto, etc... since it actually pertains to martial arts. And he should only teach it as history, preaching does not belong in a martial arts school. It is a business, and a lifestyle. You payed for martial arts, not christian sermons. If it makes you uncomfortable, and you no longer wish to continue, he should not be able to make you keep paying. I would try to sue the guy.

 

[Prima]

MV, the point is that it's his right legally. It appears he has not breached his contract. The fact that he is not what you or I would consider a true martial arts teacher doesn't mean that she has legal ground.

She could try to sue him, but as in my case (they breached contract and moved half an hour farther away) the cost of the court battle would probably be more than it's worth.

Personally, all I can say is to talk it over with your lawyer. They would know better than we would.

 

[Master Vigil]

I would atleast protest. Do research on the history of martial arts (especially korean martial arts) and show him how christianity has nothing to do with it. Debate him during class. Band with others who are uncomfortable with it, and drive his business into the ground. I have total respect for martial arts masters. But not one who preaches to me, or my fellow martial artists. Did the contract say you would be preached to? Did you sign up for church services? NO! You signed up for martial arts lessons. Drive him into the ground!!

 

[Master Vigil]

Oh, and you can tell him that Religion couldn't have been a part of Tae Kwon Do for 2000 years. Tae Kwon Do has only been around since the 1960's.

 

[Prima]

Drive him into the ground!!

:biglaugh:

Actually, MV has a great point - debate him in class. Maybe you'll show others (or him) that he's wrong, or maybe you'll just be so obnoxious that he'll release you from your contract!

 

[ahunting]

Thank you everyone for responding! I really don't want to have to take him to court. I do respect his value as an instructor. He is wonderful in that regard. I am not really protesting his legal right I guess but I go by my instincts. I don't feel comfortable there. He tells us that in order to succeed in Tae Kwon Do, it must be in our hearts. He told me and others that the members of our classes are our family. If I am uncomfortable there...it is not going to be fully in my heart. I couldn't even focus as I am supposed to do when each time he brought up Jesus, I felt preached to.

Please understand that I have no problem with people outside of class mentioning Jesus or their beliefs to me. I don't appreciate it when someone starts preaching to me anywhere...but I shrug it off. I don't try to convert other people to my religion, but I am not offended when it happens to me.

Master Vigil...your points about religion are exactly what I mean. If anything I would expect Buddhism to be involved...not Christianity. I have too much respect for him still and those who take this art seriously to debate him during class. It isn't fair to interrupt the class of others who want to learn.

He has total authority to release me from that contract. It is completely his choice. My expectation that he do that is based on his honor as a Master of Tae Kwon Do. I cannot fully put my mind and heart into Tae Kwon Do in that environment. He, of all people, should understand that. Why, as a Master, would he want me to be forced to to classes or just dump money into it. His idea that money destroys the student/teacher relationship is silly. He has now forced it to be about money. He doesn't want to lose my money so he refuses to let me out of my contract.

See what I mean?

 

[MatCauthorn]

I just started taking tae kwon do recently and although my instructor is a Christian, he doesn't make a big deal out of it. He says things like, "God gave you the ability to do X, so do it!" but that's honestly not a big deal to me. In fact, the other day in class he even made his statements more inclusive when he said, "God gave us all different abilities - and it doesn't matter if you believe in God or not ... I do - but we all have different abilities..." and he just continued on with the point he was making. Again, no big deal. He's just a regular guy who is working at his own business who happens to mention God now and then. (A regular guy with a fifth degree black belt and a mean side kick, but a regular guy nonetheless!)

I agree with Master Vigil that any discussions of Christianity that go significantly beyond the type of thing I mentioned above would be inappropriate in a martial arts setting. You shouldn't have to feel like you're getting a different level of instruction because you believe, or don't believe, in a particular faith. And you *really* shouldn't have to feel like you're being singled out in class because of your belief, or lack thereof.

As for what to do about this... I know you don't want to, but your only legal step is to go talk to this guy again. Be very firm without being argumentative. Don't get pulled into a religious argument because that's not your purpose - you are a student who is trying to get instruction in the martial arts and you feel that you would like to get that instruction elsewhere. Basically, you're a customer. And, yes, you signed a contract, and you're prepared to honor that (or, at least, you need to be prepared to do so) but an honest businessman wouldn't want to cheat money from his clients. He should release you from the contract -- it is the honorable thing, and the business-friendly thing, to do.

If he refuses, your methods of recourse would be to file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau, and to write to the organizations which accredit him in tae kwon do. Explain the situation and ask for advice from them as well. Always maintain a level tone, explaining factually what happened to you, so that you always appear to be in the right. If you get emotional or angry, it will only hurt your case. (I'm not saying that you would get this way, but martial arts training can be very expensive, and I'm sure you're eager to have the money back and have the whole episode over with.)

One final thing you might be able to do would be to ask other martial arts instructors in the area to talk to him. Explain the situation to them and ask them for their advice. Maybe some peer pressure would help him to see that what he is doing is wrong (morally, if not legally). It might not help, but it probably couldn't hurt. And, if the guy is a total jerk to you and won't let you out of the contract, then it wouldn't hurt for the competition to know that this guy engages in slightly shady business practices.

I wouldn't go out of your way to "ruin" him, since that is vengeful and possibly illegal, but I would make it clear that you don't approve of what he is doing and you will make sure that everybody you know hears about it.

-- Mat

 

[Prima]

Oh, another thought - if he really is a Grand Master, he probably has other students who teach classes also. Perhaps you could ask to be transferred to one of their classes?

If you don't want legal action, I don't think there's much you can do, except try to appeal to his (hopefully) love of martial arts. Explain that it's holding you back.

 

[ahunting]

I know this may sound silly...but...I feel very intimidated about confronting him again. It literally makes me sick to my stomach. The thought of doing it in class is unbelievably scary.

 

[Prima]

It doesn't sound silly at all. I'm like that, too - I absolutely hate confrontation, it makes me feel nauseous and like I want to run, hide, and cry!

But you know - you're going to beat yourself up for it if you don't do this.

 

[ahunting]

Hmmm some very good points. His comments were really not that offensive. I just felt as though the class was merely an extension of his church, maybe because so many of his church are students there. I can only tell you of the feeling in my chest when I walked into that dojo. Which is really the point. I can't continue learning there. It is truly holding me back. Honestly, I really like Tae Kwon Do. You mentioned being taught by another instructor there...He is the only instructor at this particular school. Actually, he has a couple underneath him but they only fill in sometimes, but always when I am working or Bridget was at school. The classes we were able to attend...he was the instructor.

Btw...he isn't the Grand Master. HIS instructor is a Grand Master. In fact...Grand Master Shin is the president of the International Tae Kwon Do Federation. Shin's Martial Arts Academy is his school and the branch, I guess you'd call it, is here in Dickson, TN. Unfortunately, Master Shin's school itself is too far away for us to attend.

 

[Prima]

Have you thought about talking to Grand Master Shin about it? I have the feeling that he'll see your view Or at least contact him to see if you can have you contract transferred to another branch of the GM's Martial Arts studios.

 

[ahunting]

Trust me...I am beating myself up for it.:banghead3

It is kind of complicated because my boyfriend's daughter is a student with me. I pay the bills for it all. It was a gift to her. His name is on this too. But I'm the one who has handled it all. The contract was supposed to be combined but it wasn't. We are getting a family discount but it never shows up that way. The price is reduced, but we both get a bill. I am supposed to be taking care of this as I said I would. So...it is stressing me out big time. Grrrr....
I know I will have to bite the bullet. I wanted to hear some feedback first and then decide the best and easiest way (for me stresswise) to handle it from here...:help:

 

[ahunting]

Prima...

Yes, I did think of it. I'm such a chicken...talking to Master Ogburn seriously killed my confidence.

I thought I could write a letter to Master Ogburn and copy it to Grand Master Shin again requesting release with my reason. If I sent it registered, I'd have a record of it as well.

 

[MatCauthorn]

I'm such a chicken...talking to Master Ogburn seriously killed my confidence.

It's not a matter of being a chicken - confrontation is scary. But the situation you've described is one in which you need to take charge. It will be scary, sure, but you've got a lot to gain, including self-confidence.

I thought I could write a letter to Master Ogburn and copy it to Grand Master Shin again requesting release with my reason. If I sent it registered, I'd have a record of it as well.

This is a good idea, but would it be possible to speak with the Grand Master directly? That way you have the opportunity to explain your situation, seek relief from the contract, and then have that news delivered directly to Master Ogburn so you don't have to deal with him yourself? This would be a good strategy because it would allow you to show that you really love the martial arts (something he will appreciate) but that you are being intimidated and you no longer feel welcome at the school. Surely he will understand your situation.

-- Mat

 

[ahunting]

This is a good idea, but would it be possible to speak with the Grand Master directly? That way you have the opportunity to explain your situation, seek relief from the contract, and then have that news delivered directly to Master Ogburn so you don't have to deal with him yourself? This would be a good strategy because it would allow you to show that you really love the martial arts (something he will appreciate) but that you are being intimidated and you no longer feel welcome at the school. Surely he will understand your situation.

-- Mat

Very good point. I'm sure I can talk to Grand Master Shin. I must make a committment to myself to do that...tomorrow...eek!

You hit the nail on the head...the point is I will no longer feel welcome at the school after my discussion with Master Ogburn.

Thanks luv!
Amy