Systematic disparagement of Biblical Literalism in Scholarly Biblical studies.

[firedragon]

I can give you a link to the David Rohl Lectures. He is an Egyptologist who gives archaeological evidence for Israel in Egypt. He has the idea that Egyptian chronology should be changed and I don't know about this because I have seen others (eg Eugene Merrill in Kingdom of Priests) who seem to find no problem with the chronology as it is, however he has archaeological evidence anyway.
An unfortunate part about this lecture series is that it seems to have been produced by a group called Patterns of Evidence who produce various archaeological DVDs etc and seem to want to make a profit so only give dribs and drabs of the lectures to tempt you into buying their products.
I'm sure you could find books of David's however with a google search.

I know him. But I have not read any of his work. Ah. Cant read now. Maybe one day soon.

 

[Kooky]

Its garbage, just basic pulp compared to Noah. Interesting, yes. Cultural, yes. World changing no.

EDIT: I would hazard the guess that the "world changing" nature of the Bible has very little to do with the quality of the Noah story's writing, and significantly post-dates the Old Testament by centuries.

 

[Brickjectivity]

EDIT: I would hazard the guess that the "world changing" nature of the Bible has very little to do with the quality of the Noah story's writing, and significantly post-dates the Old Testament by centuries.

The stories are related opposites is all I'm saying, and one is pro peace and the other is garbage....however I'm glad we have both. Its good to know more than less. Maybe garbage was the wrong term.

 

[Kooky]

Maybe garbage was the wrong term.

Yes, it was.

EDIT: Mythology and religion has always been a melting pot of culture, there is really no need to get defensive about the idea that the authors of Bible stories might have gotten an idea or two from foreigners and pagans.

To be honest, I find the purity discourse certain type of Christians (and unfortunately, also a number of Christian-educated atheists) seem to really enjoy to engage in both tedious and distressing. Diversity and cultural richness is not a drawback to a spiritual tradition, and your religion does not become wronger just because it took up other people's ideas.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Yes, it was.

EDIT: Mythology and religion has always been a melting pot of culture, there is really no need to get defensive about the idea that the authors of Bible stories might have gotten an idea or two from foreigners and pagans.

Pointing out similarities is great unless someone is trying to say they are the same thing, that one is simply a copy of the other, that culture can never leap forward. That is the misinformation which led to my exacerbation. "Its a copy of Gilgamesh" is in my opinion worse than saying "Gilgamesh is literary garbage," and I don't want the story of Gilgamesh erased. I don't want it forgotten. I want people to know where agricultural society began, how bloody and war loving it was.

To be honest, I find the purity discourse certain type of Christians (and unfortunately, also a number of Christian-educated atheists) seem to really enjoy to engage in both tedious and distressing. Diversity and cultural richness is not a drawback to a spiritual tradition, and your religion does not become wronger just because it took up other people's ideas.

The way of the world was once strength, and it was giant penises and long spears and manhood, and "if you're not strong or a man then screw you bub." The story of Noah runs counter to this, like a counterculture -- or like the birth of a new culture. Its evidence that culture doesn't always only evolve and can leap forward; but the story of Gilgamesh shows also that culture can slide backward. We can ( and have ) gone backward towards that "Strength is power" model, which probably comes naturally to humans, at least it seems it comes natural to agricultural societies. We get lots of grain, divide into slaves and other classes, build up a military and start pillaging neighbors. It seems to be our north star.

 

[blü 2]

The resurrection of Jesus from the dead is a good example.

The "resurrection of Jesus" is about the worst-attested miracle you could imagine.

There is no eyewitness account, not even a claim of one.

There is no contemporary account.

There is no independent account.

There is no mention of it in history till Paul, two decades or more after the traditional date of the purported event.

There is no detailed account of it in history until Mark, some 40 years or more after the traditional date of the purported event.

There are six versions of the event in the NT (Paul four gospels, Acts 1) and each version contradicts the other five in major ways.

There is no authenticated instance of a miracle anywhere in history.

So not only don't I think it happened in reality, but I see not the slightest reason to think otherwise.

 

[Kooky]

The way of the world was once strength, and it was giant penises and long spears and manhood, and "if you're not strong or a man then screw you bub."

That is a grotesque caricature of the way the ancient peoples understood religion and spirituality - one that is, ironically, not too far from the popular caricature of the God of Israel as an abusive, genocidal patriarch.

Recall that divine Earth Mother figures were present in both the Mesopotamian and the Kanaanite cultural traditions; recall Inanna's descent into the underworld to rescue her husband (and related stories in the Kanaanite tradition), the worship of fertility and homeliness as an expression of humanity's feminine side - but, crucially, also recall how, in the reverse, the cult of Elohim/YHWH actively suppressed the worship of Ashera/Ashtoreth/Astarte in Biblical times, how the priestesses of rival gods were systematically debased in Biblical texts as "prostitutes", and how the Bible elevates toxically masculine stereotypes into the sphere of the godly.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Recall that divine Earth Mother figures...

These are from pre-agricultural periods and eventually disappear. Agriculture changes everything including religion, and it, according to the germs gun'n steel idea sets us all on a war footing. The Epic of Gilgamesh is just one of many examples. The big kings and the accumulation of large tracts of land are created by agriculture. These days we see parallels in the structuring of economies and mega corporations.

That is a grotesque caricature of the way the ancient peoples understood religion and spirituality - one that is, ironically, not too far from the popular caricature of the God of Israel as an abusive, genocidal patriarch.

Ok. Well, I think that large scale agriculture and humanity combine to make a warring society, and people begin to realize this is not good. The Caananites you mention are some of the most oppressed people of the ancient world, so its natural to guess that they are among the first to realize things are not going well with humanity.

figures were present in both the Mesopotamian and the Kanaanite cultural traditions; recall Inanna's descent into the underworld to rescue her husband (and related stories in the Kanaanite tradition), the worship of fertility and homeliness as an expression of humanity's feminine side - but, crucially, also recall how, in the reverse, the cult of Elohim/YHWH actively suppressed the worship of Ashera/Ashtoreth/Astarte in Biblical times,

You refer to the stories about Israel and the Canaanites, but archeology indicates that the Israelites are the Canaanites, spelled with k or not. The religion of Israel also retains fertility concepts and symbols such the pomegranite and almond branch.

how the priestesses of rival gods were systematically debased in Biblical texts as "prostitutes", and how the Bible elevates toxically masculine stereotypes into the sphere of the godly.

The biblical texts decry the pederasty of the temples. The stories also are against all of the asheras and baals, male and female. Most likely these asheras and baals are political centers, perhaps from foreign nations, but nobody knows what were the real objections. Maybe they were recruiting people for service in foreign armies. Perhaps there was a superstitious fear of them? You can't really tell me that you know. You've got some absolutist opinions about scripture that I can't get behind and that I don't think are supportable. We have the public Christian interpretation, the public Jewish interpretation, the archeological interpretations and also the unknown and forgotten interpretations.

 

[Kooky]

These are from pre-agricultural periods and eventually disappear. Agriculture changes everything including religion, and it, according to the germs gun'n steel idea sets us all on a war footing. The Epic of Gilgamesh is just one of many examples. The big kings and the accumulation of large tracts of land are created by agriculture. These days we see parallels in the structuring of economies and mega corporations.

That is completely false. These kinds of female divine figures can be found in every single pre-Christian agrarian civilization. People didn't stop worshipping fertility figures with the introduction of kingship, quite the contrary.

Guns, Germs and Steel is largely garbage, to use your terminology, when it comes to the portrayal of human agrarian cultures and civilizations.

Ok. Well, I think that large scale agriculture and humanity combine to make a warring society, and people begin to realize this is not good. The Caananites you mention are some of the most oppressed people of the ancient world, so its natural to guess that they are among the first to realize things are not going well with humanity.

You realize that you are contradicting this claim with your following paragraph:

You refer to the stories about Israel and the Canaanites, but archeology indicates that the Israelites are the Canaanites, spelled with k or not.

The Israelite elites - royal and religious alike - engaged in enough oppression of their own in their attempts at eradicating rival cults in Kana'an that we can safely state that they would definitely not qualify as "the most oppressed people of the ancient world".

Post-second temple, perhaps, but not while their priests and kings still ruled the land.

The biblical texts decry the pederasty of the temples. The stories also are against all of the asheras and baals, male and female. Most likely these asheras and baals are political centers, perhaps from foreign nations, but nobody knows what were the real objections. Maybe they were recruiting people for service in foreign armies. Perhaps there was a superstitious fear of them? You can't really tell me that you know. You've got some absolutist opinions about scripture that I can't get behind and that I don't think are supportable. We have the public Christian interpretation, the public Jewish interpretation, the archeological interpretations and also the unknown and forgotten interpretations.

And then we have your interpretation, which isn't based in anything but willful conjecture and an unfettered hostility against all pagan cultures.

 

[Brickjectivity]

That is completely false. These kinds of female divine figures can be found in every single pre-Christian agrarian civilization.

You've changed your original claim from "Divine Earth Mother figures" to "Female divine figures," which is similar but not the same. Earth mother figures are ancient and evidenced in pre-agrarian societies by small carved stone figures. It is thought that they are objects of worship though that may not be. A divine figure that is female is not the same thing. Athena is not an earth mother. She's an end product.

People didn't stop worshipping fertility figures with the introduction of kingship, quite the contrary.

Now its 'Fertility figures' and saying that I claimed they ended with the introduction of kingship. Please just stop, if you're going to pretend I say things that I don't. I'm not here to spend time quoting myself.

That is completely false.

You're not producing any sources, so its pointless for you to claim its false. You haven't demonstrated knowledge. I've been producing all facts and knowledge.

Guns, Germs and Steel is largely garbage, to use your terminology, when it comes to the portrayal of human agrarian cultures and civilizations.

Its a book with a theory in it and some research. If you have something better then put it up, but maybe you don't have anything.

The Israelite elites - royal and religious alike - engaged in enough oppression of their own in their attempts at eradicating rival cults in Kana'an that we can safely state that they would definitely not qualify as "the most oppressed people of the ancient world".

No source from you; just some absolutist views of scripture from some sunday school teacher. Talking like you know something but presenting nothing that can be checked. I'm having trouble taking your position seriously.

And then we have your interpretation, which isn't based in anything but willful conjecture and an unfettered hostility against all pagan cultures.

To top it all off, you accuse me of hostility against all pagan cultures.

 

[Kooky]

To top it all off, you accuse me of hostility against all pagan cultures.

I'm not the one who characterized all pre-Christian (or perhaps pre-Judaic, you haven't been very clear on that) religion like this:

The way of the world was once strength, and it was giant penises and long spears and manhood, and "if you're not strong or a man then screw you bub."

Since you haven't backed up any of your claims with even the slightest bit of evidence of your own, I do not feel like I need to justify myself here. Either back up your own claims for once, or stop complaining that I don't.

 

[Brian2]

Israel, being in Egypt you say. Hmm.

No problem. Can you give the information or direct me to a book? Appreciated.

I actually posted the wrong video. I was thinking that the link would take you to the site where I was and where a few of his videos were.
Even this one misses out on speaking about the Viziers residence which had 12 columns and 12 tombs, one of which was a Pyramid, with the remains of a statue that David Rohl seems to think is a statue of Joseph in his coat of many colours. But it still gives evidence of Israel being in Goshen, where they should have been.

 

[Brian2]

What archaeological evidence?

Sorry I posted the wrong video. This video does not give all the evidence however. The evidence of the Viziers residence with 12 columns and 12 graves, one of which was a pyramid with the remains of a statue which David Rohl thinks is a statue of Joseph in his coat or many colours., is missing.
Patterns of Evidence seems to have shortened the videos for some reason.

 

[firedragon]

I actually posted the wrong video. I was thinking that the link would take you to the site where I was and where a few of his videos were.
Even this one misses out on speaking about the Viziers residence which had 12 columns and 12 tombs, one of which was a Pyramid, with the remains of a statue that David Rohl seems to think is a statue of Joseph in his coat of many colours. But it still gives evidence of Israel being in Goshen, where they should have been.

I dont know what you mean really by saying Israel was in Goshen. But I have gained access to his videos. Thanks for the reference. I will probably have them in a day or two. Just for my personal knowledge.

Thanks again and I wish you well.

 

[Brian2]

The "resurrection of Jesus" is about the worst-attested miracle you could imagine.

There is no eyewitness account, not even a claim of one.

There is no contemporary account.

There is no independent account.

There is no mention of it in history till Paul, two decades or more after the traditional date of the purported event.

There is no detailed account of it in history until Mark, some 40 years or more after the traditional date of the purported event.

There are six versions of the event in the NT (Paul four gospels, Acts 1) and each version contradicts the other five in major ways.

There is no authenticated instance of a miracle anywhere in history.

So not only don't I think it happened in reality, but I see not the slightest reason to think otherwise.

Paul went blind and heard Jesus, and Jesus told Ananias what had happened and Ananias went and healed Paul. That is the report about the risen Jesus by someone who was against the whole idea of the resurrection and it includes another miracle to show the story from Paul was not just an epileptic fit or whatever is said by sceptics.

 

[Brian2]

I dont know what you mean really by saying Israel was in Goshen. But I have gained access to his videos. Thanks for the reference. I will probably have them in a day or two. Just for my personal knowledge.

Thanks again and I wish you well.

At the end of Genesis when Joseph went to Egypt and eventually Jacob and the family, they ended up living in Goshen in Egypt and that is where the archaeological evidence is found.

 

[firedragon]

At the end of Genesis when Joseph went to Egypt and eventually Jacob and the family, they ended up living in Goshen in Egypt and that is where the archaeological evidence is found.

OIC. Thanks for the clarification.

Have you fully understood his thesis?

 

[Brian2]

OIC. Thanks for the clarification.

Have you fully understood his thesis?

I understand the archaeological evidence but when it comes to wanting to alter Egyptian Chronology, I'm a bit sceptical of that and whether it is needed, especially when others seem to think that it is not.
So no I don't fully understand why he wants to change the chronology and how it would make a difference to truth of the Biblical accounts.
The change of chronology might be his pet idea which is just something you have to put up with, but it might be true, I haven't sat down and nutted it all out.

 

[firedragon]

I understand the archaeological evidence

May I ask what you understand of the archeology?

 

[blü 2]

Paul went blind and heard Jesus, and Jesus told Ananias what had happened and Ananias went and healed Paul. That is the report about the risen Jesus by someone who was against the whole idea of the resurrection and it includes another miracle to show the story from Paul was not just an epileptic fit or whatever is said by sceptics.

Or more accurately, the storyteller includes another miracle because it doesn't suit him to have his story explained by the obvious ─ that Paul's experience was entirely internal, the product of his own brain.

Or let me put it this way ─ why, in the year 2021, is there still not one single authenticated example of a miracle? Why are all the miracles in stories instead? Is the answer to that related to the unwillingness of the churches to investigate miracle claims dispassionately in order to develop a testable hypothesis as to how "real" miracles could actually work?

After all, as you know, saying "God did it" explains nothing unless we're also told HOW God did it. What, in detail, was the process the resulted in the electromagnetic spectrum coming to exist when God said "Let there be light!"?