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Systematic disparagement of Biblical Literalism in Scholarly Biblical studies.

Brian2

Veteran Member
If by that you mean that there is good evidence for a large number of Hebrews, if not the quasi totality of their population, being slaves in Egypt. that's flatly false. There is no evidence of mass slavery of Hebrews in Egypt. That there were Hebrews slaves is very probable as there were probably slaves of the entire Levant region in Egypt during the era of expansion of the New Kingdom, but that's stretching reality a lot. one thing for sure though is that there were no massive slave revolt in Egypt during that period.

I'm not sure what period you are referring to. I say the Exodus was in about 1450 BC not 1250.
There is evidence for Israel being in Egypt in Goshen (which is the place they were given to settle in) and for the 12 patriarchs being there, one of them as an important leader.
The discoveries are about a rich people living there, not slaves. The Patriarchs and Joseph were free and relatively wealthy compared to poor Egyptians and/or slaves. It is only later in their stay there that they became slaves and even then there is nothing said about them becoming poor.

I don't know who told you that, but this is flatly false. There is in fact very little to no evidence of a conquest of Canaan by the Hebrew. The most famous example like the conquest of Jericho for example is completely fictitious. Genetic and archeological evidence points to the Hebrew being Canaanites themselves and simply emerging as a religious sect in the area. In fact, both Hebrews and Canaanites show signs of venerating the same deities, but Hebrew being henotheistic and having developed different dietary requirements. These are the only thing that allows us to tell Hebrews from the rest of the Canaanites.

I don't know who told you these things, but I can guess.
There in fact is evidence for the conquest just as the book of Joshua describes, but the evidence is in a time 200 years before many/most people are looking for that evidence in archaeology.
Hebrews came from a similar peoples that the Canaanites came from no doubt so why would genetics show much difference.
Israel went into Canaan and conquered and took over the cities and houses of the people they chased out and killed, and they did not get rid of all the people at once. This explains why it is hard to distinguish between the Israelites and Canaanites in archaeology.
The Bible tells us that the Israelites started intermarrying and worshipping the same gods as the Canaanites, that is why there was a syncretism.
I'm not that bright but I can answer these things that the scholars throw up with ease. Why can't they?
Why don't they know about the evidence I know about?
They no doubt do know about it but choose to ignore it because they are Biblical minimalists and sceptical.
It is not as if there are no scholars that know and teach these things, but in some disciplines the truth is decided by the majority vote and the majority seem to be the minimalists, and no doubt they flood the market with their views and drown out the others.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Who cares about objective tests to distinguish the supernatural from the imaginary. We might question some events but others are without doubt supernatural if they happened.
Then why isn't there even one authenticated example of a supernatural event?
The point is however that if the stories of the supernatural are dismissed as evidence for it then it is no wonder that you say that there is zero evidence for the supernatural.
Define "supernatural" for purposes of physics. It's not the unexplained, for example. Without such a definition, there's not even a useful concept of what the hunter of the supernatural is actually looking for.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
The creation story is not told twice imo. The 2nd time God is saying what happened with Adam and Eve only and says nothing about the whole of creation. God did not create all the plants and animals in the Gen 2 story, but He did plant a garden and form and bring animals to Adam to name them.



I would say that a university trained anthropologist would probably say that the story of Noah was copied from earlier stories and not even suggest that it was not copied.
The supernatural is not allowed in science.
When and if God decides to be revealed through science it will happen. The story of Noah is not copied. The Gilgamesh story teaches the glory of battle, that strength is the source of morality; and that is its point. It is garbage compared to the story of Noah.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Then why isn't there even one authenticated example of a supernatural event?

"Authentication" is the same as proof.
I hear even science does not give that.
But there are reports that have been confirmed by others.

Define "supernatural" for purposes of physics. It's not the unexplained, for example. Without such a definition, there's not even a useful concept of what the hunter of the supernatural is actually looking for.

Is there one definition?
Maybe not but people claim to have experienced it even without a definition.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
When and if God decides to be revealed through science it will happen. The story of Noah is not copied. The Gilgamesh story teaches the glory of battle, that strength is the source of morality; and that is its point. It is garbage compared to the story of Noah.

Personally I think God is revealed in science but many scientists do not see it and teach that God is not revealed in science.
Faith opens eyes to many things and without how do we see them?
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"Authentication" is the same as proof.
I hear even science does not give that.
Unfortunately 'proof' has two meanings ─ the meaning found in maths and other logical systems, where 'proof' means 'satisfactory result obtained through strict and exact conformity with the procedures of the system'; and the meaning used eg in court proceedings, where 'proof' means 'satisfactory demonstration'. So 'proof' is a word I try to avoid in science, substituting 'demonstration satisfactory by scientific standards'. A good example of this was the examination of the evidence for the reality of the Higgs boson at CERN in 2012.

The point is that science is always concerned to maximize objectivity.
But there are reports that have been confirmed by others.
Do you have any one particularly convincing example in mind?

Bearing in mind how the police have won a great many more traffic cases since they started using cameras ─ again, maximizing objectivity.
Is there one definition?
Maybe not but people claim to have experienced it even without a definition.
I dare say they have. Which reminds me that hallucinogenics have been popular parts of religious observance in many cultures too,
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Personally I think God is revealed in science but many scientists do not see it and teach that God is not revealed in science.
Faith opens eyes to many things and without how do we see them?

You would have scientists to make Science be all about God, but God is invisible. This is a fact of nature not the fault of someone resisting knowledge. Scientists don't teach that "God is not revealed." They teach that God is invisible to Science.

Some people cannot see the color green. That is an example. You can talk about green all you like, but they don't see it. Similarly we can talk about God all we like, yet God is invisible.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The story of Noah is not copied. The Gilgamesh story teaches the glory of battle, that strength is the source of morality; and that is its point. It is garbage compared to the story of Noah.
Oh come now! The story of Noah is plainly a version of the story (in Gilgamesh) of the (non-Semitic) Sumerian story of Ziasudra from the third millennium BCE, who pass the story on to their Semitic neighbors the Akkadians, where the hero is called Uta-Napishti; no surprise that the story passes on to the Semitic tribes of Canaan including the Hebrews.

Here, read that part of the Gilgamesh story in Andrew George's fine translation, and then let me know what you think:



Said Gilgamesh to him, to Uta-napishti the Distant:
I look at you, Uta-napishti:
your form is no different, you are just like me,
you are not any different, you are just like me.

I was fully intent on making you fight, XI 5
but now in your presence my hand is stayed.
How was it you stood with the gods in assembly?
How did you find the life eternal?’

Said Uta-napishti to him, to Gilgamesh:
‘Let me disclose, O Gilgamesh, a matter most secret,
to you I will tell a mystery of gods. XI 10

‘The town of Shuruppak, a city well known to you,
which stands on the banks of the river Euphrates:
this city was old – the gods once were in it –
when the great gods decided to send down the Deluge.
‘Their father Anu swore on oath, XI 15
and their counsellor, the hero Enlil,
their chamberlain, the god Ninurta,
and their sheriff, the god Ennugi.

‘Princely Ea swore with them also,
repeating their words to a fence made of reed: XI 20
“O fence of reed! O wall of brick!
Hear this, O fence! Pay heed, O wall!

‘ “O man of Shuruppak, son of Ubar-Tutu,
demolish the house, and build a boat!
Abandon wealth, and seek survival! XI 25
Spurn property, save life!
Take on board the boat all living things’ seed!

‘ “The boat you will build,
her dimensions all shall be equal:
her length and breadth shall be the same, XI 30
cover her with a roof, like the Ocean Below.”

‘I understood, and spoke to Ea, my master:
“I obey, O master, what thus you told me.
I understood, and I shall do it,
but how do I answer my city, the crowd and the elders?” XI 35

‘Ea opened his mouth to speak,
saying to me, his servant:
“Also you will say to them this:
‘For sure the god Enlil feels for me hatred.

‘ “ ‘In your city I can live no longer, XI 40
I can tread no more [on] Enlil’s ground.
[I must] go to the Ocean Below, to live with Ea, my master,
and he will send you a rain of plenty:‘ “
‘[an abundance] of birds, a profusion of fishes,
[he will provide] a harvest of riches. XI 45
In the morning he will send you a shower of bread-cakes,
and in the evening a torrent of wheat.’ ”

‘At the very first glimmer of brightening dawn,
at the gate of Atra-hasis assembled the land:
the carpenter carrying [his] hatchet, XI 50
the reed-worker carrying [his] stone,
[the shipwright bearing his] heavyweight axe.

‘The young men were . . . . . . ,
the old men bearing ropes of palm-fibre;
the rich man was carrying the pitch, XI 55
the poor man brought the . . . tackle.

‘By the fifth day I had set her hull in position,
one acre was her area, ten rods the height of her sides.
At ten rods also, the sides of her roof were each the same length.
I set in place her body, I drew up her design.

‘Six decks I gave her, XI 60
dividing her thus into seven.
Into nine compartments I divided her interior,
I struck the bilge plugs into her middle.
I saw to the punting-poles and put in the tackle. XI 65

‘Three myriad measures of pitch I poured in a furnace,
three myriad of tar I . . . within,
three myriad of oil fetched the workforce of porters:
aside from the myriad of oil consumed in libations,
there were two myriad of oil stowed away by the boatman. XI 70

‘For my workmen I butchered oxen,
and lambs I slaughtered daily.
Beer and ale, oil and wine
like water from a river [I gave my] workforce,
so they enjoyed a feast like the days of New Year. XI 75
‘At sun-[rise] I set my hand [to] the oiling,
[before] the sun set the boat was complete.
. . . . . . . . . were very arduous:
from back to front we moved poles for the slipway,
[until] two-thirds of [the boat had entered the water.] XI 80

‘[Everything I owned] I loaded aboard:
all the silver I owned I loaded aboard,
all the gold I owned I loaded aboard,
all the living creatures I had I loaded aboard.
I sent on board all my kith and kin, XI 85
the beasts of the field, the creatures of the wild, and members of
every skill and craft.

‘The time which the Sun God appointed –
“In the morning he will send you a shower of bread-cakes,
and in the evening a torrent of wheat.
Go into the boat and seal your hatch!” –

‘that time had now come: XI 90
“In the morning he will send you a shower of bread-cakes,
and in the evening a torrent of wheat.”
I examined the look of the weather.

‘The weather to look at was full of foreboding,
I went into the boat and sealed my hatch.
To the one who sealed the boat, Puzur-Enlil the shipwright, XI 95
I gave my palace with all its goods.

‘At the very first glimmer of brightening dawn,
there rose on the horizon a dark cloud of black,
and bellowing within it was Adad the Storm God.
The gods Shullat and Hanish were going before him, XI 100
bearing his throne over mountain and land.

‘The god Errakal was uprooting the mooring-poles,
Ninurta, passing by, made the weirs overflow.
The Anunnaki gods carried torches of fire,
scorching the country with brilliant flashes. XI 105
‘The stillness of the Storm God passed over the sky,
and all that was bright then turned into darkness.
[He] charged the land like a bull [on the rampage,]
he smashed [it] in pieces [like a vessel of clay.]

Tor a day the gale [winds flattened the country,]
quickly they blew, and [then came] the [Deluge.] XI 110
Like a battle [the cataclysm] passed over the people.
One man could not discern another,
nor could people be recognized amid the destruction.

‘Even the gods took fright at the Deluge,
they left and went up to the heaven of Anu, XI 115
lying like dogs curled up in the open.
The goddess cried out like a woman in childbirth,
Belet-ili wailed, whose voice is so sweet:

‘ “The olden times have turned to clay,
because I spoke evil in the gods’ assembly. XI 120
How could I speak evil in the gods’ assembly,
and declare a war to destroy my people?

‘ “It is I who give birth, these people are mine!
And now, like fish, they fill the ocean!”
12 ‘And now, like fish, they fill the ocean!’

The Anunnaki gods were weeping with her, XI 125
wet-faced with sorrow, they were weeping [with her,]
their lips were parched and stricken with fever.

‘For six days and [seven] nights,
there blew the wind, the downpour,
the gale, the Deluge, it flattened the land.

‘But the seventh day when it came, XI 130
the gale relented, the Deluge ended.
The ocean grew calm, that had thrashed like a woman in labour,
the tempest grew still, the Deluge ended.

‘I looked at the weather, it was quiet and still,
but all the people had turned to clay. XI 135
The flood plain was flat like the roof of a house.
I opened a vent, on my cheeks fell the sunlight.

‘Down sat I, I knelt and I wept,
down my cheeks the tears were coursing.
I scanned the horizons, the edge of the ocean, XI 140
in fourteen places there rose an island.

‘On the mountain of Nimush the boat ran aground,
Mount Nimush held the boat fast, allowed it no motion.
One day and a second, Mount Nimush held the boat fast, allowed it no motion
a third day and a fourth, Mount Nimush held the boat fast,
allowed it no motion, XI 145
a fifth day and a sixth, Mount Nimush held the boat fast, allowed it no motion.

‘The seventh day when it came,
I brought out a dove, I let it loose:
off went the dove but then it returned,
there was no place to land, so back it came to me. XI 150

‘I brought out a swallow, I let it loose:
off went the swallow but then it returned,
there was no place to land, so back it came to me.
‘I brought out a raven, I let it loose:
off went the raven, it saw the waters receding, XI 155
finding food, bowing and bobbing, it did not come back to me.

‘I brought out an offering, to the four winds made sacrifice,
incense I placed on the peak of the mountain.
Seven flasks and seven I set in position,
reed, cedar and myrtle I piled beneath them. XI 160

‘The gods did smell the savour,
the gods did smell the savour sweet,
the gods gathered like flies around the man making sacrifice.

‘Then at once Belet-ili arrived,
she lifted the flies of lapis lazuli that Anu had made for their courtship: XI 165
“O gods, let these great beads in this necklace of mine
make me remember these days, and never forget them!

‘ “All the gods shall come to the incense,
but to the incense let Enlil not come,
because he lacked counsel and brought on the Deluge, XI 170
and delivered my people into destruction.”

‘Then at once Enlil arrived,
he saw the boat, he was seized with anger,
filled with rage at the divine Igigi:
“[From] where escaped this living being? XI I75
No man was meant to survive the destruction!”

‘Ninurta opened his mouth to speak,
saying to the hero Enlil:
“Who, if not Ea, could cause such a thing?
Ea alone knows how all things are done.” XI 180
‘Ea opened his mouth to speak,
saying to the hero Enlil:
“You, the sage of the gods, the hero,
how could you lack counsel and bring on the Deluge?

‘ “On him who transgresses, inflict his crime! XI 185
On him who does wrong, inflict his wrongdoing!
‘Slack off, lest it snap! Pull tight, lest it [slacken!]’

“Instead of your causing the Deluge,
a lion could have risen, and diminished the people!
Instead of your causing the Deluge, XI190
a wolf could have risen, and diminished the people!

‘ “Instead of your causing the Deluge,
a famine could have happened, and slaughtered the land!
Instead of your causing the Deluge,
the Plague God could have risen, and slaughtered the land! XI 195

‘ “It was not I disclosed the great gods’ secret:
Atra-hasis I let see a vision, and thus he learned our secret.
And now, decide what to do with him!”

‘Enlil came up inside the boat,
he took hold of my hand and brought me on board. XI 200
He brought aboard my wife and made her kneel at my side,
he touched our foreheads, standing between us to bless us:
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure what period you are referring to. I say the Exodus was in about 1450 BC not 1250.

Both are equally absurd. In fact, the later period of 1450 BC is even more ridiculous than 1250 BC. There are still no evidence of an mass slave revolt or a mass detention of Hebrews at that time. It would be square into the reign of Thutmose III and Hatshepsup. It's during their reign that Ancient Egypt reached its greatest level of power and influence. Of course this isn't a period where Egypt was devastated by Plagues or slave revolt and they actually controlled Palestine.

I don't know who told you these things, but I can guess.
There in fact is evidence for the conquest just as the book of Joshua describes, but the evidence is in a time 200 years before many/most people are looking for that evidence in archaeology.

There are no such evidence 200 years prior. What you see with the destruction of Jericho is the traces of prior invasion by Egyptians not Hebrews. We have plenty of evidence for Egyptians conquest and wars in the region, but none for massive invasion by the Hebrews. This is the era of Thutmose III 17 military campaign after all.

I'm not that bright but I can answer these things that the scholars throw up with ease. Why can't they?
Why don't they know about the evidence I know about?
You have baseless speculation that ignores the actual body of evidence.
 
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firedragon

Veteran Member
The story of Noah is not copied. The Gilgamesh story teaches the glory of battle, that strength is the source of morality; and that is its point. It is garbage compared to the story of Noah.

It could both have the same source. Maybe the epic of Gilgamesh food episode was copied from Noahs real flood episode that happened before Gilgamesh was written.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Oh come now! The story of Noah is plainly a version of the story (in Gilgamesh) of the (non-Semitic) Sumerian story of Ziasudra from the third millennium BCE, who pass the story on to their Semitic neighbors the Akkadians, where the hero is called Uta-Napishti; no surprise that the story passes on to the Semitic tribes of Canaan including the Hebrews.
These share themes and the writer of one has read the other, but there is not a common writer.
In each story a man takes a boat, the world is destroyed by flood. Noah is special because he is nonviolent. Uta-Napishti is special because he is so violent and victorious. In Noah's story the Earth is flooded because it is so violent, but in the story of Gilgamesh destruction comes for a different reason. In Noah's story he is spared to repopulate the Earth. In Gilgamesh the man is spared only because of his search for immortality and his audacity. Its garbage, just basic pulp compared to Noah.:) Interesting, yes. Cultural, yes. World changing no.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
These share themes and the writer of one has read the other, but there is not a common writer.
In each story a man takes a boat, the world is destroyed by flood. Noah is special because he is nonviolent. Uta-Napishti is special because he is so violent and victorious. In Noah's story the Earth is flooded because it is so violent, but in the story of Gilgamesh destruction comes for a different reason. In Noah's story he is spared to repopulate the Earth. In Gilgamesh the man is spared only because of his search for immortality and his audacity. Its garbage, just basic pulp compared to Noah.:) Interesting, yes. Cultural, yes. World changing no.
But from the third millennium BCE, long before Yahweh comes on the scene c. 1500 BCE, and clearly the ancestor of the Noah story.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Israel, being in Egypt you say. Hmm.

No problem. Can you give the information or direct me to a book? Appreciated.

I can give you a link to the David Rohl Lectures. He is an Egyptologist who gives archaeological evidence for Israel in Egypt. He has the idea that Egyptian chronology should be changed and I don't know about this because I have seen others (eg Eugene Merrill in Kingdom of Priests) who seem to find no problem with the chronology as it is, however he has archaeological evidence anyway.
An unfortunate part about this lecture series is that it seems to have been produced by a group called Patterns of Evidence who produce various archaeological DVDs etc and seem to want to make a profit so only give dribs and drabs of the lectures to tempt you into buying their products.
I'm sure you could find books of David's however with a google search.

 

Brian2

Veteran Member
What archaeological evidence?

Here is a link to a lecture series by David Rohl.
The one titled Finding the Israelites in Goshen gives some evidence for them having been there but unfortunately not all of the evidence. Patterns of Evidence wants people to buy their products and so does not give it all away on YouTube. You might find the others parts of the lectures that are given in the link of interest also.

 
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