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Featured Syncretism.....Can Mixing Religious Ideas Lead to the Truth?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Deeje, Jul 28, 2021.

  1. Wildstar

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    In my view, reality is a dynamic thing of which we shift through different instances of in accordance to our will. As such, perhaps the Christian is correct, as is the Muslim, the Pagan and the Atheist. Likewise, they may also, in their lifetimes, go through spans of time where their beliefs are incorrect, depending on the nature of the instance they shift to.
     
  2. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I think what you posted ^ above^ applies to what Jesus is teaching us at Luke 10:27-37.
    Jesus gave us the story about a neighborly good Samaritan who helped and supported human-to-human benefit.
    We are all to widen out, broaden out in showing practical love on a one-on-one basis to someone in distress.
     
  3. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    People find meaning and purpose in life but only the Bible gives real future: hope.
    This 'hope' of course includes being ' saved ' ( delivered / rescued ).
    Jesus tells us who is ' saved ' at Matthew 24:13.
    The one who endures to the end is: saved.
    So, it's endure faithful to death, or be found faithful at Jesus' coming 'Glory Time' as found at Matthew 25:31-33,37
     
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  4. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Yes, according to our free-will choices.
    Yes, people go through spans of time and beliefs can be incorrect.
    But, once a person comes in contact with the 'truth about what Jesus taught' then a person is accountable.
    In the Bible, God draws right-hearted people towards Him through Jesus.
    Then, in that sense, the shift is that the past beliefs no longer exists.
     
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  5. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    That's what faith is. Hope for ultimate meaning. The bible doesn't give that. Faith does. Faith came before the Bible.

    Not exactly what those verses are saying. It's not about "believing to the end". It's about living a life of compassion. Those whose love can endure adversity and still love in the end, are the true children of God.

    It's not about who stubbornly held onto their religious beliefs about this or that doctrine or other that their church alone has right, and such other ego-based drivel.
     
  6. Left Coast

    Left Coast Peanut Butter Enthusiast
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    Yes, love of neighbor is an ethical feature of all major world religions and even philosophies like secular humanism. We are a social species that benefits from our interdependence on one another. :purpleheart:
     
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  7. Wildstar

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    My views are a bit different, friend. I believe we shift through different instances (versions) of reality. So… in one instance, Christianity may be completely true and in another, partly or even entirely false. Totality is, all possibilities, expressed infinitely. Therefore, Jesus existed, did not exist… was god, was not god and so on.
     
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  8. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    All organizations are susceptible to corruption, and the inflicting of harm upon others, including your own organization as testimonies of former members expose. The challenge becomes at times to see the good in them. And that goes some ways to explain why many don't associate with church organizations. Hence the purpose of this thread. Sometimes the bad outweighs the good.

    I absolutely agree what Jesus said to the Pharisees applies to many of these churches and their leaders, placing legalism over compassion. In fact, I have remarked that if Jesus were to see most of what is represented by the right wing conservative fundamentalist flavors of the Christian religion, he would be amazed how it's the same thing still. "The legalists you have with you always," he'd probably quip.

    Yet all of them think they are the chosen ones, who need to save the rest of the world for Jesus.

    I see that applying to all these churches springing up everywhere, each claiming to have the truth of God and everyone else is wrong and lost. Using all the right words, but leading down a path of substituted their religious beliefs and ideas for the actuality of Love. They use all the right words, but do the opposite of what they mean.

    Two people hearing the same words, can come up with two entirely different meanings. It's the ones who do harm that show their interpretations of the words come out wrong. So the teaching may remain the same, the words are the same, but the hearing of the words also remain the same. Not everyone who hears the words, gets the words.

    So it matters less whether the words are the same. It's the field upon which the seeds are sown that actually matters.

    That doesn't make sense. If his ideas were discredited, they are deniable. Not undeniable. That would make them right, when they are not. "His ideas may be discredited, but he's still right", is not a rational statement. Discredited means he was wrong.

    I have studied the Bible quite a lot over the decades. But I would clearly disagree that 98% of what the teach is lies. Same thing with the Pharisees in Jesus day. They didn't teach lies. They taught the truth, but themselves did not understand it and caused others to stumble as well.

    "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them."​

    The issue is not the teachings. It's the teachers themselves! Same thing applies to every religious group, including your own.

    Yes, sentencing someone to death for not going along with the group is pretty unloving and unchristian. Did you know that shunning others is the 'sanitized' equivalent of stoning someone to death? Shunning, on a deep primal level, is the equivalent of a death sentence, being pushed out of the group with no family or friends to support you? In the old days, when your village cast you out, you had to fend for yourself without support or protection, and it essentially translated into them being cast out to die.

    So, in casting stones at the RCC, you have to ask if your group has ever done anything comparable to burning heretics at the stake with its own members it casts out? Isn't it really all coming from the exact same place, whether you burn them or shun them?

    I see churches crucifying Jesus all the time, such as those good God-fearing, Gun loving Trumpians who attacked and killed police officers and said a prayer to Jesus after they invaded the Senate chambers. Yes, Christians kill the Christ too. They certainly crucified him anew on Jan 6, and in all the years leading up to it, as the fruit of their hearts. Didn't they?

    Yes, I've always found the image of a violent God to be incompatible with the God of Love. But it seems a lot of Christians see God as violent, such as imaging how Jesus will come back and slaughter scores of humans causing blood to flow for 200 miles, a horse-bridles deep the whole way. Lovely thought. Frighteningly violent behavior for the Jesus we read about in the gospels. But a lot of Christian worship that image of the Christ, and live their lives like that, hating others, shunning others, condemning others, judging others, trying to "save others" to that.

    Yes of course I have heard of all of this. I find it even more misguided today then I did back when I was trying to believe it when I was part of a group saying those same words.

    All of this is part of that history in the United States of mid 19th and early 20th centuries. The Great Disappointment, that Christ did not return as expected on Oct 22, 1841 was the beginning. Following that, all these little groups were born, trying to regroup themselves and figure out what really was supposed to happen. That's the soil out of which the JWs were born, as was the group I joined up with in my early 20s seeking for a path to God. Lots of "we've got the restored Gospel" type movements arouse out of that time period. That was of course over 120 year ago now.

    It was pretty clear that these were culturally motivated religious expectations, and every little flavor of belief found some little hook they could seize upon to set themselves apart from the rest. It was a marketplace for "last days" religions to crop up and grab a little piece of the pie after the fallout of the Great Disappointment. America was quite the fertile ground for new religious sects to spring up, each claiming they had found the truth that the RCC has lost as if fell into apostasy.

    All of them were claiming this. I saw a clear pattern emerge from all of that. But to keep this brief, I find myself coming to this quote from Jesus.

    "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

    ... People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them."​

    But running after them, joining up with them, finding the "right church", and all of that around the turn of the 20th century, is doing exactly what Jesus said not to do. The kingdom of God is already in your midst, or 'within you' or 'inside you' as the Greek puts it.

    I see Grace being a lot more of a factor here than you seem to. ;)
     
  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    These posts are getting ridiculously long so this will probably be the last one....I’ll break it up....

    Both the Jewish system and the Christian arrangement had methods of discipline....sometimes harsh ones causing Paul to comment....
    “....and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, Nor faint when you are punished by Him; For whom the Lord loves He disciplines, And He punishes every son whom He accepts .” . . . .”For the moment, all discipline seems not to be pleasant, but painful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterward it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.” (Hebrews 12:5-6 NASB)
    Without discipline, sin continues without repentance. (1 Corinthians 5:9-13; 2 John 9-10) We are not to encourage wrongdoing by treating it as if it doesn’t matter.

    Taking the testimony of “ex” members is not really a balanced approach, is it? Ever been on the receiving end of a disgruntled “ex”’s opinion of you? You will be portrayed as the devil incarnate...and they as the innocent victim. One sided stories are just that....it’s why we have a judicial system that hears both sides....only then, when all the facts are presented can there be a judgment......

    Which brings me to the point of religion in politics.....it’s an unholy alliance. When Jesus admonished his disciples to be “no part of the world as he was”.....he identified the ruler and god of this world as satan the devil. You cannot support a corrupt political system and obey Christ’s command....this is where we see those “doing the will” of the Father and those just using their religion as an excuse to do all the things that Jesus condemned. “By their fruits” we would recognise the genuine Christians because they will literally be no part of the world and it’s conflicts....all that is under satan’s control. (1 John 5:19; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4) Jesus never interfered with the political system of his day even though it was oppressing his people. It was not the time for that yet.

    The fact of the matter is that Jesus said that the “wheat” are in the world growing along with the “weeds”....so how does satan promote his “weeds” of fake Christianity? And how can we tell the difference?
    An expert in counterfeits does not need to examine every fake...all he needs to do is study the real thing and the counterfeits expose themselves. Since “few” are actually going to find the narrow gate (why was it narrow?) to access the “cramped road”, (why was it cramped?) why would we be surprised that a relatively small group in the world of professed “Christianity” are the ones who demonstrate all the things that Jesus said would identify them? (Matthew 7:13-14) Would they be perfect? No more that his original apostles were.....but at least they tried to the best of their imperfect ability. That is all God requires....but wilful and deliberate sin is something he has never tolerated....not from day one. Grace does not cover that.

    Yes...it’s called hypocrisy....something God detests.

    That would be because only those who get God’s invitation will “get it”. (John 6:65)

    Indeed...the seed must fall on fertile soil or it will never grow.

    It makes perfect sense if the ones who discredited him were themselves simply trying to prop up their own version of things. Jesus was right but the Jews discredited him as well. Being ostracised doesn’t mean that you are wrong...just that your views are unpopular. The “wheat” were never going to be popular.
     
  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    The Pharisees did teach lies as Jesus said to them....You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.”

    “You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: 8 ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’” (John 15:7-9)
    The Pharisees’ teachings were corrupt. When they read directly from God’s word, Jesus said to obey that, but not to do what they did.

    Teachers received a greater judgment, so all who do so need to understand that they are doubly accountable. But still we are told to obey those taking the lead among us.... (Hebrews 13:17) Who are your teachers?

    Shunning unrepentant wrongdoers was practiced in both Judaism and early Christianity......it was a form of discipline. (Hebrews 12:5-6; 11; 1 Corinthians 5:9-13)
    Leaving unrepentant wrongdoers in the congregation was not going to benefit them....unless they repented, God would withhold forgiveness.

    Not even close. When a congregation member is removed, it is because they refused to take responsibility for their actions. There is plenty of loving counsel and prayer and opportunity to repent, but some just can’t find it in themselves to admit their wrongdoing.
    It’s like “time out” to contemplate what they have done and the loss of fellowship would divide those who were humble from those who were proud or vindictive.
    The prodigal Son was given as an illustration of what happens when we leave the Father. It is also a story about repentance and returning to the family.
     
    #190 Deeje, Aug 15, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2021
  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    God’s justice is tempered by his mercy but it is not guided by sentiment. When he has just cause to be angry...we don’t want to be on the receiving end of that. What God hates is what we should hate as well......he hates the sin, not necessarily the sinner who has opportunity to separate himself from his wrongdoing and be forgiven.....that is a loving provision on God’s part....but he will never excuse wilful and deliberate sin.

    I disagree....in context, it is something very observable because Jesus gave us the “sign” of its impending arrival. (Matthew 24:3-14) It was not to take place back then, because Daniel’s prophesy had placed it in the distant future. (Not distant to God in his counting of time, but distant to us earth bound humans.)

    If someone back in Jesus’ day had implied that it was imminent, they were not to believe them. But we are now in the “time of the end”....so Jesus warned that there would be unprecedented world events in our day that would alert his disciples to the nearness of the end....and the removal of all failed human rulership, replacing it with God’s kingdom (Daniel 2:44)......the preaching of this kingdom by his disciples would continue until then. (Matthew 24:14)

    It isn’t that the we have ever set a day or an hour that would be the time of the Kingdom’s coming to rule over the earth, (Matthew 24:36) but looking at world conditions and hoping that a certain year might be the one, is not a false prophesy.....the kingdom will come because we have Jesus’ guarantee that it will. But he did tell us to “keep on the watch”....and that is exactly what we have done all through these critical “last days”. (2 Timothy 3:1-5)

    The watchtower is our logo because we are watchmen, alerting all who will listen of something impending....a feeling of change, but not for the better.....people know in their hearts that “something” is coming. The world is changing rapidly into something we have never experienced before....natural disasters in one place after another and food shortages and diseases ravaging humanity.

    When the kingdom will come, we do not know exactly.....but Jesus said it will be at a time we least expect it. (Matthew 24:43-44)
    We will be ready.
     
    #191 Deeje, Aug 15, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2021
  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    You think the devil would not take advantage of any opportunity to jump on the bandwagon? His favorite tactic is confusing deception.

    Back in Jesus’s day, in speaking to wicked Pharisees, Jesus said “the kingdom of God” that was “in their midst” was not some emotional feeling.....he was saying that the King of that kingdom was standing right in amongst them (“in their midst”) and they failed to recognise him.

    Grace is not a substitute for “doing the will of God”.
    “Faith without works is dead”....so faith leads to works that prove our faith. (James 2:18-19, 24, 26) The hardest work to do is the preaching, but Jesus said he would support that work on a global scale.....we believe that we have been doing that continuously all through this time of the end. We are known the world over for our preaching about God’s kingdom.
     
  13. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Yes, love of neighbor.......
    The difference between the Golden Rule to love neighbor as self (Leviticus 19:18 ) and the New commandment Jesus gave at John 13:34-35 is to now love neighbor more than self, more than the Golden Rule.
    We are to have the same self-sacrificing love for neighbor that Jesus has. Jesus would Not go to war.
    To love more than self as Jesus loves, then there would be No wars on Earth.
    War does Not benefit from or for our interdependence on one another.
     
  14. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I see God's undeserved Grace, His undeserved kindness is a factor "IF" as noted at 1 John 1:7 (IF).
    Adverse Judgement for the wicked - Matthew 12:32; Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35; Isaiah 11:3-4; Rev. 19:14-15

    Corruption 'yes' as we know the apostasy started early on after the 1st century ended - Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30
    We can read at Luke 17:20-21 that Jesus is addressing or speaking to those hate-filled enemy Pharisees.
    So, why anyone would comprehend that God's kingdom was 'inside/within' those hate-filled Pharisees is beyond me.
    What was ' within ' those wicked Pharisees is what Jesus said came out at Mark 7:23; Luke 6:45 ___________
    It is Not until 'after' Jesus speaks to those false religious leaders, then, at Luke 17:22 Jesus addresses his disciples.
    At Luke 19:11-15 we find Jesus teaching his 'disciples' (Not the harsh-judging Pharisees of Luke 17:20-21)
     
  15. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    You are far from alone in your views.
    There is Christianity, and there is 'Christendom' ( so-called Christian but mostly in name only )
    Jesus forewarned MANY would come in his name but prove false.
    Right after the end of the first century an apostasy falling away set in (Acts 20:29-30)
    Genuine 'wheat ' Christians would grow together with the fake 'weed/tares' Christians.
    Jesus said this would be the case til the Harvest Time. As we know harvest comes at the end of the season.
    There would be a time of separation at this Harvest Time.
    The world scene today shows we are at the separating harvest time to take place on Earth.
    As with ancient Egypt their Egyptian 'gods' were humiliated by the 10 plagues.
    Modern men's 'gods' are now being humiliated.
    ( 'gods' such as: of science, technology, political, big business, entertainment, pharmaceutical, and religious, etc. )
    None of men's 'gods' can now solve earth's series of problems to bring about a time free from crime.
    Only God's Kingdom (Daniel 2:44) is the coming solution for those who want the Earth rid of the 'weed/tares'.
     
  16. Left Coast

    Left Coast Peanut Butter Enthusiast
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    Yes, an ethic of non-violence is also a feature of other world religions. Buddhism, for example.

    Of course, you also believe Jesus will return from heaven and go to war and destroy all his enemies, which is rather counter to the ethic he preached the first time around. :shrug:
     
  17. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Thank you for your reply.
    Yes, Jesus also taught non-violence even in his New Commandment found at John 13:34-35.
    In Scripture there is ' righteous warfare ' for the sake of justice for the righteous ones - Matthew 25:37.
    In other words, it is Not going to be followers of Jesus fighting, but Jesus with 'angelic' armies - Revelation 19:14-15
    If the wicked are Not destroyed, the wicked would destroy the righteous people.
    We ALL have the same opportunity to ' repent ' so as Not to ' perish ' ( be destroyed ) - 2 Peter 3:9
    Jesus is coming to the rescue of righteous ones before the wicked could or would 'destroy' right-hearted people.
     
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  18. Left Coast

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    Let me ask you: I'm not a Witness, I don't believe in God at all. Do you think I'm wicked? Do you think I'm out to destroy you?
     
  19. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Jesus warned us that his followers would be hated, and I see No reason to think you are out to destroy me.
    The coalition of nations will surprisingly turn on religious people. ( Starting with corrupted 'Christendom', so-called Christians that are part of the many Jesus forewarned us about at Matthew 7:21-23 )
    In Scripture all judging was given to Jesus, so I don't make a judgement, nor do I want to.
    We are to look at all peoples as potential brothers. Treat all as Jesus did.
    That makes me think there is a coming harmonious ' brotherhood of man ' when all of us can live in peace.
     
  20. URAVIP2ME

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    To me, the 'hardest work to do' is to ' remember ' what I want to say ( preach ).
    Up to C-19 this area has had good manners, so a door slam would be very rare.
    To me caution is needed for dogs and geese loose in a yard.
    So, it isn't, ' I have nothing better to do ' so it can't be a slammed door or animal bite.
    Rather, it is because of taking Jesus seriously when Jesus said about the narrow path - Matthew 7:13-14
    And taking Jesus seriously to go and make disciples .... Matthew 28:19
    If one can't go to a door or store there is always letters and phone calls.

    Some religions take their religion to the point of seriously trying to kill others outside of their religion.
    Whereas I wish people knew that Jehovah's Witnesses take their religious worship seriously to the point to tell total strangers about love, forgiveness, and HOPE as found in Jesus - Revelation 22:2.

    Why don't others knock on strangers doors and tell them what you believe ? is it because what they believe is Not worth the sacrifice, the sacrifice of lips ( talking to others ).

    Just think if Christians could get their message out, the world would look like the Golden Rule.
    Safe streets to walk on, children safe in schools, yards and playgrounds with each day being safer and safer.

    For people who think JW harass them because of coming to their door, in Genesis chapter 19 just look and see how Lot and his family were harassed. Could it get that bad here in America ______________

    For people who don't like our country's ' freedom of speech ' they can always move to N. Korea, Iran, etc.
     
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