survey to Christians: the presence of Christ in bread and wine

[David1967]

The doctrine of transubstantiation states that Christ is truly present in the Eucharist. It isn't a mere symbol. In substance the bread and wine cease to exist and become God incarnate. The accidents (the perceptible physical attributes) of the bread and wine remain as bread and wine. When you take Catholic communion you are consuming bread and wine as perceived in the physical attributes. But in the substance or essence, Christ is truly present just as much as He was during His time on Earth.


The ceremonial laid out in Mosaic Law existed only to prefigure Christ. Since Christ has now come, all prefigurement of Him is redundant. All sacrifice is redundant because the ultimate, infinitely meritorious sacrifice has been rendered and paid. It is actually a grave sin to observe the ceremonial of the Mosaic Law because such observance is tantamount to a ritual denial of Christ as messiah. Either Christ was who He claimed to be or He was not. You can't have it both ways.

The moral of the Mosaic Law as summed up in the Decalogue still applies. The moral law is eternal and universal. Adultery will forever be forbidden. But the ceremonial religion in which Christ's coming was prefigured was not. Circumcision, unclean foods, animal sacrifice at the temple, laws dictating clothing etc. That's all gone. The New Testament is clear about this.


The Gospel says that Jesus is the eternal divine Word, one with the Father. And the Word was God and was made flesh. Jesus is fully God identical with the Father in essence, but not in person.

Look, not to be disrespectful myself, but if the divinity of Christ is a controversial question for you then you're not a Christian in my books. If you don't think Christ is God and freed us from the observances of Mosaic law then convert to Judaism.

Well (respectfully) I'm certainly not Catholic.

 

[Jonathan Bailey]

The doctrine of transubstantiation states that Christ is truly present in the Eucharist. It isn't a mere symbol. In substance the bread and wine cease to exist and become God incarnate. The accidents (the perceptible physical attributes) of the bread and wine remain as bread and wine. When you take Catholic communion you are consuming bread and wine as perceived in the physical attributes. But in the substance or essence, Christ is truly present just as much as He was during His time on Earth.


The ceremonial laid out in Mosaic Law existed only to prefigure Christ. Since Christ has now come, all prefigurement of Him is redundant. All sacrifice is redundant because the ultimate, infinitely meritorious sacrifice has been rendered and paid. It is actually a grave sin to observe the ceremonial of the Mosaic Law because such observance is tantamount to a ritual denial of Christ as messiah. Either Christ was who He claimed to be or He was not. You can't have it both ways.

The moral of the Mosaic Law as summed up in the Decalogue still applies. The moral law is eternal and universal. Adultery will forever be forbidden. But the ceremonial religion in which Christ's coming was prefigured was not. Circumcision, unclean foods, animal sacrifice at the temple, laws dictating clothing etc. That's all gone. The New Testament is clear about this.


The Gospel says that Jesus is the eternal divine Word, one with the Father. And the Word was God and was made flesh. Jesus is fully God identical with the Father in essence, but not in person.

Look, not to be disrespectful myself, but if the divinity of Christ is a controversial question for you then you're not a Christian in my books. If you don't think Christ is God and freed us from the observances of Mosaic law then convert to Judaism.

Many bible Christians say Christ is the Son of God and that's how the Good Book reads. Mary is not the Mother of God but the Mother of the Son of God. Any divinity of Jesus Christ is inherited from God, His Father. God, Christ and Holy Ghost are three separate entities.

 

[BilliardsBall]

At your respective church's mass or communion, do you believe that there is a genuine presence of Christ in the bread wine and/or grape juice that are a part of that ceremony (sacrament) performed by the minister or priest?

What is your denomination?

The Catholics, according to Catholic radio, say that a project is supposed to believe and profess that the bread of the communion is the genuine body of Christ and that the blood of the communion is the genuine blood of Christ and the elements of the Mass are not mere symbols or the priest is otherwise guilty of heresy.

Problem 1: Rome says it's the real stuff
Problem 2: Jesus said unless you have the real stuff, you can't get to Heaven (John 6)
Problem 3: Rome disallows all non-Catholics to have the real stuff

Do you see the insidious nature of 3 above?

 

[Muffled]

At your respective church's mass or communion, do you believe that there is a genuine presence of Christ in the bread wine and/or grape juice that are a part of that ceremony (sacrament) performed by the minister or priest?

What is your denomination?

The Catholics, according to Catholic radio, say that a project is supposed to believe and profess that the bread of the communion is the genuine body of Christ and that the blood of the communion is the genuine blood of Christ and the elements of the Mass are not mere symbols or the priest is otherwise guilty of heresy.

I believe those are two different things. Jesus is one with the Father who is everywhere so of course He is present.

Asa protestant do not believe in consubstantiation but the bead and grape juice (Baptist) are the body and blood not in substance and not simply a symbol. The bread is bread in substance but for the believer it is the body of Christ.

 

[Muffled]

I would say they were guilty of cannibalism if they thought they were literally eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Jesus.

I believe that is where symbolism comes in. Eating the body and blood is meaningless but having Jesus within is real and important.

 

[Muffled]

I believe Jesus intended for us to see the bread and wine as representations of his flesh and blood, and not to see them as literally becoming those things. Catholics believe otherwise. No offense intended for their doctrine.

I believe representation is as good a word as any. The bread does not mystically change into the body of Jesus but it does become that in out minds.

 

[Jonathan Bailey]

At your respective church's mass or communion, do you believe that there is a genuine presence of Christ in the bread wine and/or grape juice that are a part of that ceremony (sacrament) performed by the minister or priest?

What is your denomination?

The Catholics, according to Catholic radio, say that a project is supposed to believe and profess that the bread of the communion is the genuine body of Christ and that the blood of the communion is the genuine blood of Christ and the elements of the Mass are not mere symbols or the priest is otherwise guilty of heresy.

project should read priest

dog dam auto-correct anyway!

Now it's true that Catholic priests make a genuine project out of bread and wine at Mass every day.
One might think they would need a doctorate in theology and a technical manual to perform it being it's so complicated and drawn out.

Protestant minsters, UM included, have the bread and grape juice thing done at church in no more than a half-hour flat. Communion is performed about twice a year in Methodist churches.

I've never heard of the term "celebrate" in terms of the bread and grape juice sacrament in any Protestant church. The minister will serve the bread to the members of the congregation and say "the body of Christ". I think of birthday parties and holidays as something that is CELEBRATED. I think of churchgoing as a service, a duty, not a party.

 

[Shakazuluuuuu]

At your respective church's mass or communion, do you believe that there is a genuine presence of Christ in the bread wine and/or grape juice that are a part of that ceremony (sacrament) performed by the minister or priest?

What is your denomination?

The Catholics, according to Catholic radio, say that a project is supposed to believe and profess that the bread of the communion is the genuine body of Christ and that the blood of the communion is the genuine blood of Christ and the elements of the Mass are not mere symbols or the priest is otherwise guilty of heresy.

I believe in Order. Whatever means. I leave to human ingenuity to achieve this. The book was written. Good book. Not satan's slake. Satan is a short cut.

 

[metis]

To understand the Catholic perspective, one needs to understand the concept of "essence" and how it relates to the OP. Wiki as a source on this is quite adequate.

 

[pearl]

One might think they would need a doctorate in theology and a technical manual to perform it being it's so complicated and drawn out.

The Eucharistic prayers are from the 2nd century. A priest has no authority to change these prayers.

I've never heard of the term "celebrate" in terms of the bread and grape juice sacrament in any Protestant church.

Jesus' D/R is acknowledged as an event to celebrate.

 

[Jonathan Bailey]

The Eucharistic prayers are from the 2nd century. A priest has no authority to change these prayers.



Jesus' D/R is acknowledged as an event to celebrate.

Protestant church services seem straightforward and not complex. The usher hands the churchgoers a program, just like at baseball game or the circus, at the door so the worshiper knows exactly what is going on at service which is spoken in plain English. Catholic vocabulary is full of Latin gibberish. All this bowing and genuflecting makes me nervous whenever I view a mass in videos or in movies. The mass bell ringing rattles my nerves. It was designed from keeping people from falling asleep in church, no doubt.

 

[pearl]

The mass bell ringing rattles my nerves. It was designed from keeping people from falling asleep in church, no

Actually you have a point here. The old rite, in Latin, with the priest's back to the congregation, the bells signified what was to take place, the high point of the Mass. Not so much a wake up call as to stop praying the rosary etc. With the passage of time post Vat II some parishes have reinstituted the practice.

The usher hands the churchgoers a program

We pick up a bulletin on the way in which includes the readings, hymns, prayers for the day.

All this bowing and genuflecting makes me nervous whenever I view a mass in videos or in movies.

They are simply gestures in humility before God.

 

[metis]

Catholic vocabulary is full of Latin gibberish. All this bowing and genuflecting makes me nervous whenever I view a mass in videos or in movies. The mass bell ringing rattles my nerves. It was designed from keeping people from falling asleep in church, no doubt.

Every single religion and denomination has its own pattern, and the pattern at other churches or religions may seem unusual or even weird to us. However, your reaction and my reaction to first attending a mass were the polar opposite as I really felt it was very meaningful and moving. However, I didn't convert to Catholicism until many years later.

IOW, it's sorta like "beauty is in the eyes of the beholder", plus I'm not a believer in the "one size fits all" approach.

 

[Jonathan Bailey]

Every single religion and denomination has its own pattern, and the pattern at other churches or religions may seem unusual or even weird to us. However, your reaction and my reaction to first attending a mass were the polar opposite as I really felt it was very meaningful and moving. However, I didn't convert to Catholicism until many years later.

IOW, it's sorta like "beauty is in the eyes of the beholder", plus I'm not a believer in the "one size fits all" approach.

I was baptized a Methodist. I just put on few mass videos recently out of curiosity to see what they were all about. It looks like they are having some long drawn-out communion. There is a whole army of church personnel at a Cat mass in fancy costumes it looks like. Sometimes my Methodist pastor would wear a suit and tie during worship and other times he put on some white vestment. We had an altar boy in some white garb. He marched down the aisle toward the altar and lit the candles on the alter at the opening of service. The smell of incense would fill the church. We had incense candles. He snuffed them out at closing time. The choir had their usual garb. The lady playing the organ and piano just wore plain clothes. The ushers wore suits and handled the collection plates.

 

[metis]

I was baptized a Methodist.

I was baptized and grew up in a fundamentalist Protestant church, and I had intentions of going into the ministry. However, the church's position rejecting the ToE very much bothered me to the point that I really had no desire to attend any longer. I didn't attend any mass until my sophomore year during my undergrad years.

It looks like they are having some long drawn-out communion.

The mass has two major sections: the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Both are viewed as being very important.

BTW, when attending my Protestant services, communion actually took longer than at a typical mass.

There is a whole army of church personnel at a Cat mass in fancy costumes it looks like.

The robes worn replicate what Jesus and the apostles wore, so how is wearing them really any different than when your people wear suits? Either way, they're "costumes", to use your word.

 

[syo]

The Orthodox christians really believe it is Jesus' body and blood and they take it very seriously.

 

[1213]

...
The Catholics, according to Catholic radio, say that a project is supposed to believe and profess that the bread of the communion is the genuine body of Christ and that the blood of the communion is the genuine blood of Christ and the elements of the Mass are not mere symbols or the priest is otherwise guilty of heresy.

I think the bread and wine should be understood similarly as in the old covenant the body and blood of sacrificial animal. Old and new covenant were sealed with body and blood. “Body and blood” are the seal of the covenant. Jesus didn’t have animal and its body and blood but he had bread and wine. Bread and wine are the body and blood of the new covenant. Disciples of Jesus take bread and wine in remembrance of Jesus and the covenant Jesus made. In the same, they take part to that new covenant, they accept it for themselves.

 

[pearl]

There is a whole army of church personnel at a Cat mass in fancy costumes it looks like.

Much of the Catholic liturgy is retained Jewish liturgy.
As Jesus put on the tilit , the seamless robe, he would recite a prayer, This before Vatican II was kept in the prayer a priest said before putting on his robes before Mass. The washing of a priest’s hands before the Eucharist, corresponded to the ablutions of a Jew before prayers. The standing during the gospels is, in Jewish liturgy, the standing for the Torah. The prayers of the offertory are the prayers of the Jewish Benediction before a meal.

The Sanctus is a direct quote from the Jewish prayer the Quedushah, while the ending of the maranatha when we say “Come Lord Jesus” is there in the invocation for the coming of the Messiah in the Jewish Shemoneh Esreh said daily.

The structure of the Mass recalls the structure of the Temple service and sacrifice. The beating of the breast at the Kyries repeats the Jewish beating of the breast as a sign of mourning or of repentance.

The octave after Christmas or Easter, is the week kept by Jews after every major feast. The beni-toi with its holy water, sign of baptism and once placed at the entrance of Catholic homes, takes the place of the Shema Israel encased in the wall before the entry into Jewish homes. And the readings of the Easter Vigil are the Passover readings Jesus would have known. We have kept more than most people realize of the liturgy Jesus would be familiar with.

 

[OtherSheep]

At your respective church's mass or communion, do you believe that there is a genuine presence of Christ in the bread wine and/or grape juice that are a part of that ceremony (sacrament) performed by the minister or priest?

John.6:58 "This is that bread which came down from Heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever." John.12:50 "And I know that His Commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak." Rev.2:17 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth.

Matt.26:28 "For this is My blood of the New Testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

Rev.12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the Commandments of God, and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ.