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Surahs in Quran

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
Could you give the full reference and the grading of the Hadith at least as per Al-Bani .

Salaam, I am sorry I don't have reference from Al Bani. However, your questioning on this matter really puzzles me.

Do you think there is a Sahih Hadith related to every single revelation(of verses) in the Qur'an ? Even though there are some mentions of some of the verses in some of the Hadiths, certainly not all of the verses are noted in Hadith. Take for example, Surah At Tariq(#86 in current Qur'an) (I picked that totally randomly), how do you know if it was really a revelation that is supposed to be in the Qur'an? Is there any Sahih Hadith that mentions that ? I don't think so. It is only because Qur'an has been revealed and written in the presence of the Prophet(pbuh) and then reviewed by the Prophet(pbuh) and then verified by the companions(in writing and memorization) to make sure what they compiled is what was supposed to be there. You don't need a Sahih Hadith to verify that. However, what the Sahih Hadiths regarding this issue tell us is that they followed the process to preserve the authenticity. For example, they had copies like the one of Ayesha's(ruh) as per the Sahih Hadith to verify the compilation.

Now that you know that the Qur'an in current form is completely preserved and know according to the Sahih Hadiths that preserved form is certainly not in the sequence of revelation. What other alternatives are there other than the conclusion that the compilation sequence is divinely guided since it came from the originial copies during the time of the Prophet(pbuh) ?
 

Union

Well-Known Member
Salaam, I am sorry I don't have reference from Al Bani. However, your questioning on this matter really puzzles me.

Do you think there is a Sahih Hadith related to every single revelation(of verses) in the Qur'an ? Even though there are some mentions of some of the verses in some of the Hadiths, certainly not all of the verses are noted in Hadith. Take for example, Surah At Tariq(#86 in current Qur'an) (I picked that totally randomly), how do you know if it was really a revelation that is supposed to be in the Qur'an? Is there any Sahih Hadith that mentions that ? I don't think so. It is only because Qur'an has been revealed and written in the presence of the Prophet(pbuh) and then reviewed by the Prophet(pbuh) and then verified by the companions(in writing and memorization) to make sure what they compiled is what was supposed to be there. You don't need a Sahih Hadith to verify that. However, what the Sahih Hadiths regarding this issue tell us is that they followed the process to preserve the authenticity. For example, they had copies like the one of Ayesha's(ruh) as per the Sahih Hadith to verify the compilation.

Now that you know that the Qur'an in current form is completely preserved and know according to the Sahih Hadiths that preserved form is certainly not in the sequence of revelation. What other alternatives are there other than the conclusion that the compilation sequence is divinely guided since it came from the originial copies during the time of the Prophet(pbuh) ?

W/Salam . I am trying to apply the logic and rationality and to me if the Qur'an is preserved and conveyed the way it was revealed , then the current sequence of the Qur'an is also the sequence of the revelation . That is to say, then Fatiha is the first revelation and not Alaq . Also it makes sense that Fatiha means opening/introduction/beginning .
 
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loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
W/Salam . I am trying to apply the logic and rationality and to me if the Qur'an is preserved and conveyed the way it was revealed , then the current sequence of the Qur'an is also the sequence of the revelation . That is to say, then Fatiha is the first revelation and not Alaq . Also it makes sense that Fatiha means opening/introduction/beginning .

That is not a correct logical conclusion. The Qur'an was preserved as instructed by God and that could be a different sequence than sequence it was revealed in - especially because many times revelations came in response to certain situations - and God might have wanted that verse to be placed in a different sequence in the book. That does not take away anything from the preservation of it.

Also, by that, you are suggesting that all the Sahih Hadiths regarding the first revelations being Surah Alaq or sequence of revelations are false/fabricated. In doing so, you are mistrusting the same people who are responsible for preserving the Qur'an and completely disregarding history and yet have no qualms about believing in the preservation accuracy/authenticity of the Qur'an. It is quite a contradiction - you really can't have it both ways.

Peace.
 
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Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
W/Salam . I am trying to apply the logic and rationality and to me if the Qur'an is preserved and conveyed the way it was revealed , then the current sequence of the Qur'an is also the sequence of the revelation . That is to say, then Fatiha is the first revelation and not Alaq . Also it makes sense that Fatiha means opening/introduction/beginning .

Here is a brief answer to your question. If more time permitted I could summarize from a very large article called "Purity of the Text of the Holy Quran"

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5VC2202.jpg
 

ametist

Active Member
I understand Quran is given to the Prophet all at once and later for us it is opened verse by verse as times and events unfold.
First 'verses' came, were from Alaq but first 'Surah' completed with all its verses was Fatiha.
Quran is true in sequence or in every letter because it has been revised multible times among Gibrael and Prophet.
 

Union

Well-Known Member
That is not a correct logical conclusion. The Qur'an was preserved as instructed by God and that could be a different sequence than sequence it was revealed in - especially because many times revelations came in response to certain situations - and God might have wanted that verse to be placed in a different sequence in the book. That does not take away anything from the preservation of it.

Also, by that, you are suggesting that all the Sahih Hadiths regarding the first revelations being Surah Alaq or sequence of revelations are false/fabricated. In doing so, you are mistrusting the same people who are responsible for preserving the Qur'an and completely disregarding history and yet have no qualms about believing in the preservation accuracy/authenticity of the Qur'an. It is quite a contradiction - you really can't have it both ways.

Peace.
Well the living proof of the real sequence of the Qur'an is the way it is preserved , starting with Surah Fatiha and finishing with Surah Nas. That is also not going to change .

It is unnecessary to rely on this fact on Hadith as the Qur'an talks itself .

And also important to note that Hadiths were compiled and passed to us by some non-witness , third hand persons who did never see Prophet Muhammad nor listened to a single word from his mouth . Even none of the Hadith writer got those teachings from any of the companions of the Prophet . These supposed sayings and acts of Prophet were transmitted orally over 200+ years latter than the Prophet and his companions .


On the contrary , the Qur’an was collected , compiled and preserved from the very time of the Prophet and his direct companions who witnessed the Prophet and heard and learnt the Qur’an from his very mouth . Those copies of the Qur’an are all still existing intact all around the world . People discovering more ancient copies of Qur’an day by day whose scientific carbon-14 testing even pointing the period right to the year when Prophet was alive . InshALLAH more discovery will be coming in this regard .

Therefore Qur'an and Hadith came from different sources - one is from the companions of Prophet while the other one from third-hand persons .
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
Well the living proof of the real sequence of the Qur'an is the way it is preserved , starting with Surah Fatiha and finishing with Surah Nas. That is also not going to change .
Well, no one is questioning that. Indeed, the Qur'an is in a state preserved as God wanted it to be.


It is unnecessary to rely on this fact on Hadith as the Qur'an talks itself .

And also important to note that Hadiths were compiled and passed to us by some non-witness , third hand persons who did never see Prophet Muhammad nor listened to a single word from his mouth . Even none of the Hadith writer got those teachings from any of the companions of the Prophet . These supposed sayings and acts of Prophet were transmitted orally over 200+ years latter than the Prophet and his companions .


On the contrary , the Qur’an was collected , compiled and preserved from the very time of the Prophet and his direct companions who witnessed the Prophet and heard and learnt the Qur’an from his very mouth . Those copies of the Qur’an are all still existing intact all around the world . People discovering more ancient copies of Qur’an day by day whose scientific carbon-14 testing even pointing the period right to the year when Prophet was alive . InshALLAH more discovery will be coming in this regard .

Therefore Qur'an and Hadith came from different sources - one is from the companions of Prophet while the other one from third-hand persons .

No one is questioning the strength of Quranic preservation over the Hadiths. And that's why scholars have classified Hadiths into different categories as good, fabricated etc. But to say that there were all passed down by non-witnesses, nothing written is not true.

Here is an example of 1st century Hadith collection :
Are There Any Early Hadiths?

Here is a manuscript of Mālik's Muwaṭṭaʾ Dated To 179 AH. PERF No. 731: The Earliest Manuscript Of Malik's Muwatta' Dated To His Own Time

Rejection of Hadith also disregards all the prophecies from Hadith that already came true and are still coming true.

You simply cannot reject all Hadiths on those basis. Watch the lecture by Dr. Jonathan Brown, a western ḥadīth scholar from University of Washington. [youtube]2J4uzCZ8ZRA[/youtube]
Hadith: Between Muslim Conviction & Western Criticism - Jonathan Brown - YouTube

Some excerpts from one of his lecture are:

“I have never been more impressed with anybody in history in my life than with Muslim ḥadīth scholars. I mean, when I first started studying ḥadīth I was very skeptical, I though it was all made-up and bogus but the more you study it the more you just appreciate the intense brain power of these people. I mean they memorized thousands and thousands of books and then they were able to recall all the different versions of ḥadīth from these books, and then they were able to analyze them and put them all together and figure-out where they all connect and make judgments about the authenticity of these ḥadīth. I mean even nowadays with electronic databases, and computers and word processing, I have hard time following even their discussions of the ḥadīth - let alone their original mastering that they were drawing on. It's almost unbelievable... It's almost unbelievable, and if you didn't have the books in front of you that they wrote, I wouldn't believe it personally....”

Finally, by rejecting the Hadith, you actually are rejecting the commands of Allah(swt) as stated in the Holy Qur'an:

As stated in the Holy Qur'an, we are supposed to follow Allah and His messenger(pbuh) both : "Say,'Obey Allah and His Messenger': But if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith." (Al-Qur'an 3:32).
Question#1 : How do you Obey the Messenger(pbuh) without knowing what He asked you to do ?
Answer: You can't. The only way I know is through the Hadiths.

Again, as stated in the Holy Qur'an : "Say: If it be that your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your mates, or your kindred; the wealth that ye have gained; the commerce in which ye fear a decline: or the dwellings in which ye delight - are dearer to you than Allah, or His Messenger, or the striving in His cause;- then wait until Allah brings about His decision: and Allah guides not the rebellious." (Al-Qur'an 9:24)
Question#2 : How can Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) be dearer to us than our own fathers unless we know who he is and his ways ?
Answer: You can't and the Qur'an doesn't give us enough about His life and His ways to be able to do that. The only way I know is to know Him through the Hadiths.

And God knows best but I see those above scenarios(not enough info of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) in the Qur'an) as a wisdom of God Almighty so people cannot come up with excuses to not follow the Hadith.

Peace.
 
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Union

Well-Known Member
I afraid the core issue of the thread is hijacked by you and me ;) but lets me be brief :
But to say that there were all passed down by non-witnesses, nothing written is not true.

Here is an example of 1st century Hadith collection :
Are There Any Early Hadiths?

Manuscript please ! I can't just claim that I invented a time machine 10 years back and I can't produce it .

Here is a manuscript of Mālik's Muwaṭṭaʾ Dated To 179 AH. PERF No. 731: The Earliest Manuscript Of Malik's Muwatta' Dated To His Own Time

Was Imam Malik an eye-witness of Prophet ?179 AH a long time to go though ... His work had numerous transmissions and many editorials works and they differ with one another .

Rejection of Hadith also disregards all the prophecies from Hadith that already came true and are still coming true.

So many Prophecies are found in Veda , Puran , Bible , Nostrodamu , Book of ancient Prophecy etc. so what is the point ?

Finally, by rejecting the Hadith, you actually are rejecting the commands of Allah(swt) as stated in the Holy Qur'an:

As stated in the Holy Qur'an, we are supposed to follow Allah and His messenger(pbuh) both : "Say,'Obey Allah and His Messenger': But if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith." (Al-Qur'an 3:32).
It doesn't say 'Obey ALLAH and obey Bukhari , Muslim etc.' . For detailed analysis of the verse please refer :
What does ‘ Obey GOD and obey the Messenger’ really mean

Question#1 :
How do you Obey the Messenger(pbuh) without knowing what He asked you to do ?
Answer: You can't. The only way I know is through the Hadiths.
Answer : You can . Qur'an is the life work of Prophet and whatever is in the Qur'an is the Sunnah/Hadith of Prophet .

Again, as stated in the Holy Qur'an : "Say: If it be that your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your mates, or your kindred; the wealth that ye have gained; the commerce in which ye fear a decline: or the dwellings in which ye delight - are dearer to you than Allah, or His Messenger, or the striving in His cause;- then wait until Allah brings about His decision: and Allah guides not the rebellious." (Al-Qur'an 9:24)
Question#2 : How can Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) be dearer to us than our own fathers unless we know who he is and his ways ?
Answer: You can't and the Qur'an doesn't give us enough about His life and His ways to be able to do that. The only way I know is to know Him through the Hadiths.
Answer : Qur'an has sufficient info about the Prophet , enough for a Muttaqi . Nobody needs to know in what age he died or how many grey hair he had in his beard to be a Muttaqi .
Refer : Prophet Muhammad in Qur'an
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
It doesn't say 'Obey ALLAH and obey Bukhari , Muslim etc.' . For detailed analysis of the verse please refer :
What does ‘ Obey GOD and obey the Messenger’ really mean
That is so ridiculous. If you could replace Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) with Bukhari, Muslim just because those are the means through which we know of Prophet's(pbuh) commands/sayings - one could apply the same logic and replace Allah(swt) with Sahabas (as in Allah didn't say Obey the Sahabas either) since those are the ones who brought the Qur'an to us in the preserved form. This is what happens when you stop following the Sunnah. God forbid, May Allah(swt) forgive me for anything wrong I have said and guide me to the straight path.


Answer : You can . Qur'an is the life work of Prophet and whatever is in the Qur'an is the Sunnah/Hadith of Prophet .

Incorrect. You can't follow the Prophetic guidance as to how to pray, how to perform Hajj, how to fast, give zakat, and many more fundamental teachings of Islam. Yes, you can try to come up with your own way to do those from the Qur'an(even if not completely) but that certainly is not the prophetic guidance on those matters. And that is tantamount to saying the best man(pbuh) to walk on the face of the earth who came to teach humanity Allah's(swt) ways and commands didn't or forgot to teach/show us some of the most basics of the Islamic teachings that Allah(swt) emphasized so much in the Qur'an. Astagfirullah.


Answer : Qur'an has sufficient info about the Prophet , enough for a Muttaqi . Nobody needs to know in what age he died or how many grey hair he had in his beard to be a Muttaqi .
Refer : Prophet Muhammad in Qur'an

Yes, no body needs to know the color of his hair but it is common sense which we apply to every other teacher/role model in life that we know how to emulate a role model. Allah(swt) sent our beloved Prophet(pbuh) as a Mercy and the best Role Model to mankind. And if one doesn't even know how he(pbuh) treated his wives, children, companions, any other fellow human beings - how do you expect one to take him as a role model ? It is simply not possible and those information is not available in the Qur'an.

Your views on those above matters is enough for me to refrain from arguing with you anymore on this topic.

Salaam
 
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Union

Well-Known Member
That is so ridiculous. If you could replace Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) with Bukhari, Muslim just because those are the means through which we know of Prophet's(pbuh) commands/sayings - one could apply the same logic and replace Allah(swt) with Sahabas (as in Allah didn't say Obey the Sahabas either) since those are the ones who brought the Qur'an to us in the preserved form. This is what happens when you stop following the Sunnah. God forbid, May Allah(swt) forgive me for anything wrong I have said and guide me to the straight path.


Incorrect. You can't follow the Prophetic guidance as to how to pray, how to perform Hajj, how to fast, give zakat, and many more fundamental teachings of Islam. Yes, you can try to come up with your own way to do those from the Qur'an(even if not completely) but that certainly is not the prophetic guidance on those matters. And that is tantamount to saying the best man(pbuh) to walk on the face of the earth who came to teach humanity Allah's(swt) ways and commands didn't or forgot to teach/show us some of the most basics of the Islamic teachings that Allah(swt) emphasized so much in the Qur'an. Astagfirullah.




Yes, no body needs to know the color of his hair but it is common sense which we apply to every other teacher/role model in life that we know how to emulate a role model. Allah(swt) sent our beloved Prophet(pbuh) as a Mercy and the best Role Model to mankind. And if one doesn't even know how he(pbuh) treated his wives, children, companions, any other fellow human beings - how do you expect one to take him as a role model ? It is simply not possible and those information is not available in the Qur'an.

Your views on those above matters is enough for me to refrain from arguing with you anymore on this topic.

Salaam

W/Salam . That was expected from you like every Billion Sunni while talking with Qur'anist . After a while they refrain (=Failed ;)) to defend Hadith .
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
W/Salam . That was expected from you like every Billion Sunni while talking with Qur'anist . After a while they refrain (=Failed ;)) to defend Hadith .

A small correction ... I refrained after giving my arguments from the Qur'an to which you had no viable explanations which makes sense.:rolleyes:
 

Union

Well-Known Member
A small correction ... I refrained after giving my arguments from the Qur'an to which you had no viable explanations which makes sense.:rolleyes:

And the manuscript of Sahifa of Hammam ?
And whether Imam Malik was the eye-witness of Prophet or not ?
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
Since we both agree on the preservation and the authenticity of the Qur'an - it is best to first establish the need for the Hadith based on the Qur'an and then decide which Hadith is authentic/trustworthy and which is not - otherwise, we are just wasting our time.

So that's exactly what I was doing with the quranic verses I gave you. And I have clearly shown the need for the Hadith based on the Qur'an because without it you cannot get prophetic guidance on any religious matters, neither can you follow Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) as a role model. It really defeats the purpose of sending the best Guide ever to mankind to show mankind how to live their life according to God's will and then having no information available on the Guide to follow for the later generations. In other words, your Islam will be based on your whims and not prophetic guidance without the Hadith.

And the manuscript of Sahifa of Hammam ?
And whether Imam Malik was the eye-witness of Prophet or not ?

However, if you still insist, you can read these materials.

Was Sahifa Hamam Ibn Munabbih fake?

When did the documentation of Sunnah begin?

Hadith Compilation by the Companions of the Prophet

Peace.
 

Union

Well-Known Member
Since we both agree on the preservation and the authenticity of the Qur'an - it is best to first establish the need for the Hadith based on the Qur'an and then decide which Hadith is authentic/trustworthy and which is not - otherwise, we are just wasting our time.

So that's exactly what I was doing with the quranic verses I gave you. And I have clearly shown the need for the Hadith based on the Qur'an because without it you cannot get prophetic guidance on any religious matters, neither can you follow Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) as a role model. It really defeats the purpose of sending the best Guide ever to mankind to show mankind how to live their life according to God's will and then having no information available on the Guide to follow for the later generations. In other words, your Islam will be based on your whims and not prophetic guidance without the Hadith.



However, if you still insist, you can read these materials.

Was Sahifa Hamam Ibn Munabbih fake?

When did the documentation of Sunnah begin?

Hadith Compilation by the Companions of the Prophet

Peace.

Dear LOT , I have read those articles long before , those have nothing to do with the questions I have asked . My questions were very simple and the answers are also very simple . Answer me directly without beating around the bush . If you don't have the answer why not then admit the truth ?

According to ALLAH (swt) , the Qur'an is complete , self-sufficient , well-explained , well-enough to follow Islam and 100% accurate . After realizing these facts who cares about Hadith and Tafsir . Can GOD lie ? Never . Can human lie ? Yes . Hence let me take GOD as my savior and not any Imam .

The term Hadith and Sunnah used in Qur'an several times and not a single time these are used to relate to the Prophet as Shia and Sunni invented hundred years after the demise of the Prophet .

Qur'an is the only source of Islam authorized by GOD , HIS Prophet and well-preserved by his companions for the next generations and GOD HIMSELF took the responsibilities for the safeguard of the Qur'an from any distortion .

On the other hand Hadith created by some people whom Prophet and his companions had no idea of and GOD let the Hadith be distorted that anybody can created the Hadith the way they wanted .

Dear LOT , these are all facts , logical and simple to pursue . But to accept these truths you need to open your mind . Please do so and you will see the Words of GOD can lead you to the guidance .
 
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Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
So much hate in this thread. I love all Muslims and hope that they can stop hating each other whether they belong to the sects that are Sunni, Shia, or Non-Sunni-Shia.

"Love for All, Hatred for None"
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
Dear LOT , I have read those articles long before , those have nothing to do with the questions I have asked . My questions were very simple and the answers are also very simple . Answer me directly without beating around the bush . If you don't have the answer why not then admit the truth ?

According to ALLAH (swt) , the Qur'an is complete , self-sufficient , well-explained , well-enough to follow Islam and 100% accurate . After realizing these facts who cares about Hadith and Tafsir . Can GOD lie ? Never . Can human lie ? Yes . Hence let me take GOD as my savior and not any Imam .

The term Hadith and Sunnah used in Qur'an several times and not a single time these are used to relate to the Prophet as Shia and Sunni invented hundred years after the demise of the Prophet .

Qur'an is the only source of Islam authorized by GOD , HIS Prophet and well-preserved by his companions for the next generations and GOD HIMSELF took the responsibilities for the safeguard of the Qur'an from any distortion .

On the other hand Hadith created by some people whom Prophet and his companions had no idea of and GOD let the Hadith be distorted that anybody can created the Hadith the way they wanted .

Dear LOT , these are all facts , logical and simple to pursue . But to accept these truths you need to open your mind . Please do so and you will see the Words of GOD can lead you to the guidance .

You accuse me of 'beating around the bush' while not being able to answer the most fundamental of questions I have asked(based on the Qur'an). And rather you come up with the most illogical means to explain your stance such as not believing in the Hadith because 'Humans can lie'. As if, the Qur'an that you have in your possession was handed down to you by God directly and not through any human means.

No point furthering this discussion.

Peace.
 

Union

Well-Known Member
You accuse me of 'beating around the bush' while not being able to answer the most fundamental of questions I have asked(based on the Qur'an). And rather you come up with the most illogical means to explain your stance such as not believing in the Hadith because 'Humans can lie'. As if, the Qur'an that you have in your possession was handed down to you by God directly and not through any human means.

No point furthering this discussion.

Peace.

GOD took the responsibility of Qur'an and not of Hadith . Why ? Hadith has nothing to do with HIS prescribed religion Islam .
 

ametist

Active Member
GOD took the responsibility of Qur'an and not of Hadith . Why ? Hadith has nothing to do with HIS prescribed religion Islam .
What about giving a chance to your free will on trusting your fellow humans and not? :)
How would a person know how to pray five times a day and when exactly if there werent words of prophet and if they werent narrated by other muslims all the way to this day?
 

Union

Well-Known Member
What about giving a chance to your free will on trusting your fellow humans and not? :)
How would a person know how to pray five times a day and when exactly if there werent words of prophet and if they werent narrated by other muslims all the way to this day?

Hi Ametist . Religion Islam is a divine one prescribed by GOD , the Almighty . Hence HE , the Exalted didn't leave any room for any human , even for the Prophet to manipulate in it . Islam is starting from Surah Fatiha and finishing with Surah Naas . Those 114 Surahs detailed 100% Islam , hence no need of anything else .

Salah has been prescribed by ALLAH (swt) and it is hilarious enough to think that HE , didn't mention about it in HIS words , e.g., the Qur'an . The word Salah repeated around 100 times in Qur'an and HE , the Exalted detailed it in them . It is not fault of Qur'an or of GOD if it's methodology doesn't match with the traditional Salah of Sunni and Shia as found in Hadith .

Sunni and Shia should adjust their method of Salah with the method ordained by GOD in Qur'an and never be vice-versa .

For the Salah in Qur'an please visit the following thread . Thanks in advance .

Salah in Qur'an
 
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