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Supreme Court ruling on prayer case

Discussion in 'North American Politics' started by Shaul, Jun 28, 2022.

  1. Poisonshady313

    Poisonshady313 Well-Known Member

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    If nobody reported being treated unfairly, why assume that it's happening? Just because it COULD happen doesn't mean it DID happen.

    I would expect these things to be handled on a case by case basis.

    If a coach wants to pray, fine. If students want to join, fine. If students who don't join are discriminated against, not fine. Fire that teacher, and send a message that discrimination isn't ok.
     
  2. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    One problem is that discrimination can be subtle.
    It might not be detected. Or it might be intentional, & ignored.
    But if a problem is found, then damage has already been done.
    Victims might never be made whole, or the district could pay
    hefty damages.
    The better solution is to not have religion be established
    by staff in public schools.
    It's easy to construct scenarios wherein all school
    staff express religion with no adverse consequences.
    But the potential for trouble exists nonetheless.
    And now it's not just one school doing this. It can be
    any school in the entire country.
    It's fair to assume it will happen, & not just cuz of Murphy's
    Law. It's historically happened when public schools
    have a standard religion. Christian prayer was commonly
    compulsory when I was in elementary school. No teacher
    ever offered exemption.
     
  3. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    I've nothing to add.
     
  4. Poisonshady313

    Poisonshady313 Well-Known Member

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    Based on what I've read about this teacher, I don't see it rising to the level of "establishing religion".
    I have no reason to believe that coach kneeling on the 50 yard line gives the school a standard religion.

    And I don't believe for one second that this sort of thing would be ignored. Even if the student doesn't speak up against the coach/school, the parent certainly would.
     
  5. Poisonshady313

    Poisonshady313 Well-Known Member

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    I'd like to sincerely thank you for providing an excellent example of how to have a civil disagreement here at RF.
     
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  6. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    If you didn't have such a cute avatar,
    I'd savage your racial heritage.
     
  7. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    Let us begin with the 50 yard line -- dead centre of a football field, and therefore of some significance. Also the timing, immediately at the end of the game, before players have even had a chance to head to the showers.

    Justice Sonya Sotomayor, in her dissent, cast doubt on the idea that the coach offered his prayers “quietly, while his students were otherwise occupied.” She included a photograph of Coach Kennedy at one of his game night prayers. In the picture, he stands surrounded by a dense group of dozens of high school football players, uniformed and kneeling at his feet. Kennedy is speaking with a football helmet in his hand, stretched high above his head in what looks like a gesture of command. Spectators can be seen in the background, looking on from the stands. Quiet and private this was not.

    During Kennedy’s employment, the school district took pains to balance the coach’s desire for prayer with their own obligations to remain religiously neutral. Starting from when he began coaching in 2008, Kennedy, an evangelical Christian, initially prayed to himself at games, a practice that nobody had a problem with. He says that he got the initial idea from a movie, the low-budget 2006 Christian football drama “Facing the Giants,” which he saw on TV. The film features a fictional coach who prays with his high school football team. But at some point, Kennedy’s praying became louder, and more public. He would stand on the 50-yardline just after the final whistle, and pray out loud. Teen athletes, both from his team and from the opposing side, would kneel with him in a large scrum; Kennedy mixed his prayers with pep talks. Kennedy says that the visible center of the field was an important location for him. “It made sense to do it on the field of battle,” he told the reporter Adam Liptak.

    It is these public prayers, conducted while Kennedy was acting in his official capacity as the coach, that became an issue. The school tried to accommodate Kennedy, offering him ways to exercise his faith that did not involve students, and did not risk giving the impression that his religion was endorsed by the public school. Kennedy refused, and lawyered up. He eventually left the school – voluntarily – and began to claim that the district’s policies amounted to both religious discrimination and a violation of his free speech rights.
     
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  8. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    It seems strongly that this conduct is "establishment" of
    religion. This decision applies throughout the land's public
    schools, and....
    - Isn't limited to coaches. It could be teachers, principals,
    & even janitors (but never Willie).
    - Allows that the staff may treat their religion as the default
    religion, with the nons right being only to self exclude.
    - Feeds the desire of many who want their religion taught
    in public schools. Many Christians feel entitled to this, &
    have long sought it.

    Robert Jeffress Wants 10 Commandments Taught in Public Schools
    A State Rep. Wants Ten Commandments Posted in Public Schools, Because Republicans Say So
    North Carolina School Board Wants Ten Commandments Displayed In Each School | iHeart
    Young says Ivey wants Ten Commandments in all schools

    If government uses taxpayer dollars to hire staff & build
    facilities that celebrate a particular religion, does this not
    constitute establishment because there is no evidence of
    overt oppression? And if there were, would the sole remedy
    (as suggested) be to mitigate, punish &/or cure each
    singular instance of oppression?

    This appears to be the beginning of voiding the Incorporation
    Doctrine regarding the 1st Amendment by a court that's begun
    to recognize its application to the 2nd Amendment. This is
    inconsistent legal philosophy, & hardly stare decisis.
    We're in for a rough ride until this cabal has its teeth pulled.
     
    #88 Revoltingest, Jun 29, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2022
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  9. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    This is something that a lot of people seem not to understand. And not only peer pressure, but group dynamics, the desire for approval from authority (Coach Kennedy) and many other very real psychological factors are at play here. And that is why I so heartily agree with the Court dissenters.
     
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  10. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    Yes, you are indeed in for a rough ride. And remember, Mitch McConnell has owned up to the fact that this has truly been his "life's work." The "champions" of liberty are really, really big on taking away liberties they themselves aren't comfortable with.
     
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  11. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    They just have a different vision of "liberty", which
    is the freedom to live according to their religion.
    More & more Republicans are now openly gunning
    for prosecuting homo sex, making Christianity part
    of public school education, & banning contraception.
     
    #91 Revoltingest, Jun 29, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2022
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  12. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    Democracy is about letting local governments determine their own social, cultural and political life and decide about their own future. A distant federal government deciding instead is the death of democracy.
    In my humble opinion.
     
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  13. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    And I am so glad that I finally left that party. At least I did so before Trump was elected. A wall did not have to quite fall on me.
     
  14. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    The federal Constitution's Bill Of Rights places limits
    (under the Incorporation Doctrine) on what state &
    local governments can do & impose upon people.
    Do you reject the idea of nationally enforced civil rights?
     
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  15. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    Your former party needs your influence more than ever.
    Drag them back to sanity, please.
     
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  16. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    I wish that I could. I have tried.

    I am a voice crying out in the wilderness:D
     
  17. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    The trick is to not expect any detectable results.
     
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  18. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    I am not understanding why the death penalty is decided at local level while abortion should not.
    If the first is, so should the latter.
    They both affect life, I think.
     
  19. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    The death penalty is constitutional.
    The federal gov hasn't made it illegal.
    So each state decides whether to employ it.

    Abortion is constitutional, however no longer a right.
    So each state can decide whether to allow it.

    The fact that both issues affect life isn't really
    all that much to have in common. Values &
    views regarding life vary greatly from person to
    person, religion to religion, & society to society.
     
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  20. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    He was invited not to do it again, repeatedly. He refused, and instead lawyered up, because he was more interested in being loud and proud at center field, surrounded by his acolytes, than he was in praying. That was all presented during oral arguments.
     
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