1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Supreme Court ruling on prayer case

Discussion in 'North American Politics' started by Shaul, Jun 28, 2022.

  1. Poisonshady313

    Poisonshady313 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2008
    Messages:
    4,743
    Ratings:
    +662
    Religion:
    Judaism
    I wasn't rude. Direct, maybe?

    "What makes you say so".... a call for elaboration. A wish that you supply evidence for your supposition.

    Didn't figure there would be anything wrong with that.
     
  2. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    219,239
    Ratings:
    +85,019
    Religion:
    Atheist
    If the school establishes a religion, this isn't made
    constitutional by allowing non-believers to leave.
    If there's a strong correlation between cars being
    able to break the speed limit, & cars commonly
    breaking the speed limit, then this would be a problem,
    even if an individual car at a particular time doesn't
    speed.

    But no such relationship need be shown because of
    the establishment clause (1st Amendment). Of course,
    SCOTUS could void the Incorporation Doctrine (which
    makes the Bill Of Rights & subsequent amendments
    binding upon not just the fed gov, but also the states),
    thereby eliminating all rights in the Constitution at the
    state level.
    That's because you're not considering the full circumstances,
    eg, his intent to affect the students, his refusal to pray with
    less appearance of color of authority.
     
  3. Poisonshady313

    Poisonshady313 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2008
    Messages:
    4,743
    Ratings:
    +662
    Religion:
    Judaism
    I mean, if the game is over and literally all that is left to do is go home... i feel like just going home is a perfectly viable option.

    Unless there's evidence that this coach was treating non participants differently.
     
  4. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2014
    Messages:
    21,038
    Ratings:
    +8,731
    Religion:
    Christianity
    I am so sorry for what you have gone through. Deeply sorry. I apologize on those Christians' behalf.
    Sectarianism is very bad. And Christians can be very sectarian, that's very unfortunate.
    But fortunately, all religions and all beliefs are allowed in very Christian areas of the United States. I meant that. Only that. I did not mean to imply that all Christian groups are welcoming outsiders.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  5. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    60,294
    Ratings:
    +40,231
    Religion:
    Atheist
    It was rude. And you still have not acknowledge your errors.

    Are you a Christian?
     
  6. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    60,294
    Ratings:
    +40,231
    Religion:
    Atheist
    He was also still on the clock. He was still being paid. The man is a hypocritical Christian. Why are you defending him?
     
  7. Poisonshady313

    Poisonshady313 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2008
    Messages:
    4,743
    Ratings:
    +662
    Religion:
    Judaism
    I disagree.
    I believe the error is yours.

    No.
     
  8. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    60,294
    Ratings:
    +40,231
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Oh, I see that @Poisonshady313 's religion is Judaism. So he may not know how Christians are supposed to pray. According to Jesus Mathew 5 6-8

    5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
     
  9. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    219,239
    Ratings:
    +85,019
    Religion:
    Atheist
    If religions of staff & students are to be made known by
    schools having religious ceremonies with non-believers
    noticeably abstaining, this opens up the certainty that
    dominant religions will tend to treat others with less regard.
    Separation of church & state benefits public schools by
    allowing students & staff to keep religion from being
    made known to all, & having it be a factor in participation.
    The faithful....
    atheist worker fired after refusing to attend company prayer meeting...

    It reminds me of the default in US courts to swear to God
    (the Judeo-Christian god) to tell the truth. To request a
    secular oath is to notify judge & jury that one is not of
    their faith, which is generally majority Christian.
    This can have a prejudicial effect.
    What do they care, eh. They're Christians, & not
    defendants or plaintiffs anyway. It's someone else's problem.
     
    #69 Revoltingest, Jun 29, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2022
    • Useful Useful x 2
  10. Poisonshady313

    Poisonshady313 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2008
    Messages:
    4,743
    Ratings:
    +662
    Religion:
    Judaism
    I'm not sold that what this coach is doing amounts to establishing religion.

    Cars commonly break the speed limit. But that doesn't mean we pull over cars that aren't speeding just because they might.

    Neither of those circumstances matter if there is no evidence that students were pressured to join in, under pain of some penalty for refusing to do so.
     
  11. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    60,294
    Ratings:
    +40,231
    Religion:
    Atheist
    You complained about my manners and yours were at least as bad. The only mistake that I made was in not realizing that you were a Jew. Jesus was aware of fakes and frauds in his time. He told his followers how to pray. This man did what the fakes and frauds did.
     
  12. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2014
    Messages:
    21,038
    Ratings:
    +8,731
    Religion:
    Christianity
    That's absolutely relevant. But this employee can simply be invited not to do it again. Dismissal is a disproportionate measure.
     
    #72 Estro Felino, Jun 29, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2022
  13. Poisonshady313

    Poisonshady313 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2008
    Messages:
    4,743
    Ratings:
    +662
    Religion:
    Judaism
    I will continue to respectfully disagree with you on both of those points. Move on.
    Fine... I'll grant you the false piety thing
     
  14. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    219,239
    Ratings:
    +85,019
    Religion:
    Atheist
    The possibility that there was no unjust treatment
    of non-believers doesn't negate the tendency for
    dominant religions to oppress others. They don't
    need expressed penalties or pressure to join. They
    need only discriminate in subtle ways, eg, tend to
    more easily cut non-believers from the team.
     
  15. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    219,239
    Ratings:
    +85,019
    Religion:
    Atheist
    It's what believers so often do though when religion
    is made integral to an otherwise secularly purposed
    organization, eg, business, school.
    And Christians & Jews should take note....
    In my area, some public school districts are majority Muslim.
    Would you want their teachers & coaches leading your kids
    in prayers to Allah? Do you believe your kids would receive
    equal treatment when they abstain from the call to prayer,
    thereby making their kafir status known?
     
  16. Poisonshady313

    Poisonshady313 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2008
    Messages:
    4,743
    Ratings:
    +662
    Religion:
    Judaism
    I am not a Christian, and I do not want school prayer back. I am not convinced that what this coach has done rises to that level.

    Doesn't illustrate the point as well as you'd hope... I don't want Christians leading public schools in prayer. I don't even want Jews leading public schools in prayer.

    The question is, did what this coach do rise to the level of leading school prayer, if the students are free to walk away without repercussion? I don't believe so.

    When I was in my high school chorus, I refused to sing especially religious Christian songs. And despite my music teacher's argument that "it's just music", I was able to refuse without being treated differently, without my grade suffering, without my ability to participate in the chorus suffering.

    There was no need to fire my teacher. Even though he had a position of authority and could have picked a more secular selection.

    I think there's a difference between evidence of wrongdoing vs being afraid of the potential of wrongdoing.

    If students were being singled out for not praying, then I agree. Fire the guy and shame on the court for supporting him.

    But so far all I'm hearing is that he was highly visible and "peer pressure" etc.

    If provided evidence that any of his athletes ever suffered from not joining his post game prayer, I'll change my tune.
     
  17. Poisonshady313

    Poisonshady313 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2008
    Messages:
    4,743
    Ratings:
    +662
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Is there evidence that this particular coach did this sort of thing?
     
  18. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    219,239
    Ratings:
    +85,019
    Religion:
    Atheist
    This coach is one person. And you're OK with his
    gathering students around for the purpose of group
    prayer. But the law must deal with the general case.
    It's a coach this time. But the ruling applies to any
    public school staff, eg, teacher, principal. And you
    cannot presume that staff being able to establish
    a religion within each one's purview will be handled
    with tolerance & equality.
     
  19. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    219,239
    Ratings:
    +85,019
    Religion:
    Atheist
    None that I know of.
    Do you have any evidence that the coach
    treated all believers & all nons the same?
    How about evidence that other newly enabled
    school staff will all handle school prayers with
    fairness?
    After all, this decision is now the law of the land,
    & will be applied everywhere in any public school.
     
  20. Poisonshady313

    Poisonshady313 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2008
    Messages:
    4,743
    Ratings:
    +662
    Religion:
    Judaism
    So fire the staff that discriminates against their students.

    But if I'm on the team, and the coach takes a knee at the 50 yard line after the game, and I'm perfectly free to hit the showers and head home... then I don't care if the coach is Christian, Muslim, Satanist, or Jedi... it matters not as long as he doesn't have a captive audience and those who don't join in aren't treated any differently.

    You're simply assuming unfair treatment will happen. I need evidence that it did happen.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
Loading...