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Sunni's follow Islam as defined by the Qur'an more than the Shia.

firedragon

Veteran Member
Strange how you never see any of the many RF "rationalists" who stridently insist no atheist puts great faith in hadiths in these threads :D

I dont know about "rationalists" and who you mean by that, and I dont understand what you just said. Do you mean people dont ask this question?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
That has nothing to do with scholarship or knowledge of doctrine. It's simply what Sunni's think of Shia.

Your claim was "ask a Sunni if a Shia is a real Muslim, and he'll say no". So I told you that is not a scholarly position or an official position.

So you changed it to doctrine and what Sunni's think.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
You've done several threads about it...

Augustus. Are you trolling me??

Haha. Im just kidding. YOU are right. I did. I have something in the back of my mind with those posts. You know we learn everyday. At different times, we have different things to test out. This forum is very good for that.

But dont embarrass people. PM them and tell them "you are doing this too much". ;)

BTW, I didnt know this gentleman was an atheist. From the post I just thought he was Christian for what ever reason.

Peace.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
Your claim was "ask a Sunni if a Shia is a real Muslim, and he'll say no". So I told you that is not a scholarly position or an official position.

So you changed it to doctrine and what Sunni's think.

Nope. Not a change at all. You're desire to nay-say my posts leads you to make claims that are not true.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Just my opinion after reading the Qur'an for 20 years and observing actions and rituals practiced by various sects of Islam.

First, Mohamed would recoil in horror at the phrase "sects of Islam". He thought he was creating a monolith, but after he died men do what men do and started messing with it. IMO, if Mohamed didn't do it or advocate for it, then it isn't part of Islam. The Shia added things like line-of-succession rules and Ashara, and off they went to create an offshoot.

NOTE: Not being a Muslim, I believe the Qur'an was created solely by Mohamed. No god(s) were involved.

1. Abraham religion starts with him, but doesn't end with him, he has branches (Asbat) Quran talked about, linking his family with him.
2. Moses religion starts with him, but doesn't end with him, and Twelve verses have Aaron name along side Moses and 20 verses with Aaron name and while he was a name of God that sails the ship of salvation, he too had twelve branches starting with Aaron and ending with Jesus.
3. Adam religion starts with him, but doesn't end with him, he has Seth (set by God) to succeed him and Noah is the 9th Successor of Adam.

By your logic, the followers of Abraham, Moses, and Adam all innovated when they followed their respective Twelve Successors.

Sorry, this logic doesn't make sense, and the way of the past to way of present to the future is all the same per Quran with no change.

Sunnis are right if Imams (a) are not appointed by God, it would be an innovation. But they are appointed by God as the proofs of this in Quran and Sunnah are too many to recount.

In fact, the Quran argues every generic has Twelve luminaries with him, and if Christians saw John as equal to Jesus as emphasized in the Bible, that people didn't recognize him, and Elijah as equal to both, and all of them same rank as one Ahlulbayt of Aaron and Moses, they would not have gone into Jesus Worship and as for Uzair no one worshipped him from Jews but they emphasized on him more then others as God's most beloved human, but the Quran in this regard shows he was but a saint resurrected and it's only really Twelve luminaries that represent the founder such as Moses and Mohammad.

The Quran has emphasized on Ahlulbayts of the past, to make way for the present and final one - Ahlulbayt of Taha and Yaseen.

I read the Gospels and it even emphasizes on Jesus as the morning star of the family of David, which is also the family of Imran and family of Moses and family of Aaron, one chosen family of guidance.

The Torah talked about Ahlulbayt of Ibrahim not because Jews are related to them by blood which is fabricated per Quran, as Quran states, the Jews were in fact offspring of those carried in the ship of Noah. Which means not even Noah is their father, and in fact, we are not all offspring of Adam, we are all spiritual children of Adam but Adam offspring are emphasized to have had Prophethood and God's favor upon them, while Prophets coming from offspring of Adam would not need to be emphasized if all humans were offspring of Adam.

The Torah talked about Ahlulbayt of Ibrahim and emphasized on Joseph and others, to show, what a chosen household and family looks like. Then it made a covenant with respect to Aaron and his family. Yes, it goes 180 against this and accuses the first Mariam and Aaron and his family of a lot of things, but these are fabrications per Quran.

Same with Saul/Talut, Solomon/Sulaiman, they are righteous. And Lot is righteous, and makes the case why God picks one offspring out of the two founders. And he chosen Aaron to be the father of Prophets in bani-Israel.

And SARAH is the MOTHER OF ISMAIL despite what hadiths say about Hagar and accusations of slavery by hands of Ibrahim and Sarah, all lies, to make as ambiguous as possible the clear Prophecies of Mohammad and his family, and the Twelve princes means there is a king in offspring of Ismail, and Twelve will inherit him, and the king when it says Abraham is King or when Jesus emphasized he is God's anointed king and his authority is of the next world, all this means, it's spiritual authority primarily with the right to rule but their authority is not negated if people accept them or reject them.


Ibrahim - Ismail - Isaac - Yaqoub - Asbat (branches such as Yusuf) is a big theme in Quran. Lut being right hand man of Ibrahim is big theme too and he is like Aaron to Moses. He is his nephew, and Allah (swt) could've put Imams in Lut offspring or Ibrahim, but chose Ibrahim for a reason.

And he could've put in initially Ismail offspring, but out wisdom put it in Isaac, and promised a covenant of later times which is obviously what Moses means with the "the one who you will send".

God never sent any alone but always as men together, known as "the family of the reminder". Of course, the households he raised among humans and put his name in there, also had women such as the two Mariams, Sarah and Fatima (those are the ones we know) but you can make it a generalization by overwhelming majority of the Ahlulbayt being men (Imams of guidance).

All this context of chosen family and it makes understand what is meant by for example "Auli-Ibrahim" or Auli-Musa and Auli-Harun. Now, Auli-Ibrahim and their authority is used to contextualize envied humans who we then emphasized to obey in 4:59.

Get a clue before you talk about Quran. There is been a war to separate the household of the reminder from the reminder during the Prophet's (s) life till now.
 
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Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
@stevecanuck if you bring me one classical Sunni scholar who didn't attribute miracles (they called them karimat) with the 4th Imam (a) for example, then you might say Sunni vs Shiite history. But you know till this century all Sufis were Twelvers. This is new, Sufis not being Twelvers is new.

Sunnis themselves even if not Sufi, recorded the Imams of Ahlulbayt (a) doing miracles, but called them "karamat".

Now, go to tell me according to Quran who performs miracles? Regular people or only God's trusted ones?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Since we talking history, why did Sunnis recording miracles of Ahlulbayt (a) call them "karamat"? This whole thing about karamat you should look it up.

Shias would say miracles are proof while Sunnis didn't deny Ahlulbayt (a) doing them but called them karamat. This is according to our history books and hadiths, both Sunni and Shiite.

Aushura and the sky raining blood is not only recorded by Shiites, but by Sunnis for example. Why?
 
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TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
According to Baha'i beliefs.

CG, it is either the Truth or not and as such, it is the most logical and rational explanation available or it is not.

In saying that, feel free to explain how Islam dominated the East from the 7th Century and also eventual the Holy Land up to the 19th into the 20th Centuries, if it was not recorded in prophecies, then prophecies are not worth anything at all.

The problem is, if Islam is foretold in the Bible, then literally billions of peoples have to seriously review how they see Scriptures, both the Bible and Quran.

Plain and simple, that is the real issue, very few can detach themselves from their current nature and nurture and current frames of references to look with new eyes and hear with new ears, you hear this all the time on RF.

If any person was to look at the Messages of all the Messengers with an unbiased mind, they would only have cause to embrace each of them, as all of them were given to teach us to be better people and to live in harmony with each other while looking after the world we live in.

Abdul'baha while in America offered no one had to change their faith, they only had to start practicing what they had already embraced and do away with the doctrine that limits them finding that in all faiths. A true Unity in our Diversity.

Personally I have had enough of all this, I am basically just want the world to be shaken from its slumber and I hope I will be a casualty of that process. The disunity is indeed killing me.

Regards Tony
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
CG, it is either the Truth or not and as such, it is the most logical and rational explanation available or it is not.

In saying that, feel free to explain how Islam dominated the East from the 7th Century and also eventual the Holy Land up to the 19th into the 20th Centuries, if it was not recorded in prophecies, then prophecies are not worth anything at all.

The problem is, if Islam is foretold in the Bible, then literally billions of peoples have to seriously review how they see Scriptures, both the Bible and Quran.

Plain and simple, that is the real issue, very few can detach themselves from their current nature and nurture and current frames of references to look with new eyes and hear with new ears, you hear this all the time on RF.

If any person was to look at the Messages of all the Messengers with an unbiased mind, they would only have cause to embrace each of them, as all of them were given to teach us to be better people and to live in harmony with each other while looking after the world we live in.

Abdul'baha while in America offered no one had to change their faith, they only had to start practicing what they had already embraced and do away with the doctrine that limits them finding that in all faiths. A true Unity in our Diversity.

Personally I have had enough of all this, I am basically just want the world to be shaken from its slumber and I hope I will be a casualty of that process. The disunity is indeed killing me.

Regards Tony

You know Bahaism should be discussed. But not every thread. This about Shia-Sunni, from what I understand, Bahais take side of Shia on the Ali (a) dispute.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
In fact, the Quran argues every generic has Twelve luminaries with him,

Significance of Twelve

Thou didst ask as to the tenth to the seventeenth verses of the twenty-first chapter of Saint John the Divine's Revelation. Know thou that according to mathematical principles, the firmament of this earth's brilliant day-star hath been divided among twelve constellations, which they call the twelve zodiacal signs. In the same way, the Sun of Truth shineth out from and sheddeth its bounties through twelve stations of holiness, and by these heavenly signs are meant those stainless and unsullied personages who are the very well-springs of sanctity, and the dawning-points proclaiming theoneness of God.

Consider how in the days of the Interlocutor (Moses), there were twelve holy beings who were leaders of the twelve tribes; and likewise in the dispensation of the Spirit (Christ), note that there were twelve Apostles gathered within the sheltering shade of that supernal Light, and from those splendid dawning-points the Sun of Truth shone forth even as the sun in the sky. Again, in the days of Muhammad, observe that there were twelve dawning-points of holiness, the manifestors of God's confirming help. Such is the way of it.

Accordingly did Saint John the Divine tell of twelve gates in his vision, and twelve foundations. By `that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God' is meant the holy Law of God, and this is set forth in many Tablets and still to be read in the Scriptures of the Prophets of the past: for instance, that Jerusalem was seen going out into the wilderness.

The meaning of the passage is that this heavenly Jerusalem hath twelve gates, through which the blessed enter into the City of God. These gates are souls who are as guiding stars, as portals of knowledge and grace; and within these gates there stand twelve angels. By `angel' is meant the power of the confirmations of God--that the candle of God's confirming power shineth out from the lamp-niche of those souls--meaning that every one of those beings will be granted the most vehement confirming support.

These twelve gates surround the entire world, that is they are a shelter for all creatures. And further, these twelve gates are the foundation of the City of God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and on each one of these foundations is written the name of one of the Apostles of Christ. That is to say, each one maketh manifest the perfections, the joyous message, and the excellency of that holy Being.
-- `Abdu'l-Bahá, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 165

With Twin prophets there was 24, in case you did not know.

Abdul Baha , in His book :Some answered Questions, page 67 says:

"In each cycle the guardians and holy souls have been twelve.... But in this glorious manifestation there are twenty-four, double the number of all the others, for the greatness of this manifestation requires it..."

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You know Bahaism should be discussed. But not every thread. This about Shia-Sunni, from what I understand, Bahais take side of Shia on the Ali (a) dispute.

That is why I participated, the Baha'i Faith was born from the Shia line of understanding.

Yet both Sunni and Shia contributed to what Islam became. There is wisdom from Allah in all things.

I also offer if the Bab and Baha'u'llah are Messengers for this day, the "Day of God", then you can see why I would offer they are applicable to all the conversations we can have about Allah and Faith and to all other conversations we can have about life in general.

Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Islam did become the beast the Bible foretold with 7 kingdoms and 10 rulers,
You said, "did" as if it is a known fact. It isn't. It's a belief of the Baha'i Faith.
The problem is, if Islam is foretold in the Bible, then literally billions of peoples have to seriously review how they see Scriptures, both the Bible and Quran. Regards Tony
Yes, is it? Is it in the Bible as interpreted by Baha'is? Your interpretations are not facts.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You said, "did" as if it is a known fact. It isn't. It's a belief of the Baha'i Faith.
Yes, is it? Is it in the Bible as interpreted by Baha'is? Your interpretations are not facts.

Facts and Truth are relative, some take a while to embrace.

Regards Tony
 
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