Sunni's follow Islam as defined by the Qur'an more than the Shia.

[stevecanuck]

They kill each other. But Christians point to other churches and often declare 'they are not Christians!'
Sad

Just think how much trouble the rest of the world would be in if Islam had remained the monolith that Mohamed created. At least this way, if they're killing each other, they spend fewer resources trying to subjugate the rest of us as demanded in verse 9:29.

 

[Sheldon]

NOTE: Not being a Muslim, I believe the Qur'an was created solely by Mohamed. No god(s) were involved.

Muhammed was illiterate, so I am dubious the texts were derived solely from him. Also the earliest known copy of the text dates to 750 CE, a hundred twenty years after Muhammad's death.

I don't believe any texts are derived from any deity, as I don't believe any deities exist.

 

[stevecanuck]

Muhammed was illiterate, so I am dubious the texts were derived solely from him. Also the earliest known copy of the text dates to 750 CE, a hundred twenty years after Muhammad's death.

I don't believe any texts are derived from any deity, as I don't believe any deities exist.

It's probably safe to say that the vast majority of the Qur'an is an accurate representation of what Mohamed taught. However, any discussion of that nature with Muslims is moot, because they believe it to be 100% accurate. So, whatever the Qur'an says is what we have to deal with.

 

[stevecanuck]

Yes, of course.

Just like I doubt the gospels are primarily comprised of 'actual history', or the Ramayana.



By actual history you mean stuff written down centuries after the fact by people who said Muhammad split the moon and flew around on a donkey-like creature?

Personally I'd say religious narratives based on 200 years of oral transmission across diverse societies and cultures that contain fantastical aspects should not be uncritically accepted as 'actual history'.

Just to be clear, what exactly don't you believe about the generally accepted history of early Islam? Was there a Mohamed? Did he start in Mecca and then go to Yathrib? Did he oversee the slaughter of the Banu Quraiza? Where are we?

 

[Augustus]

Muhammed was illiterate,

Unlikely to be true. It's more likely that the term used ummi means something like 'gentile' or 'not learned in scripture'.

Some explanation why here:

Was Muhammad illiterate?

It also relates to the problem with the OP assuming that the Sunni understanding of the Quran is "authentic".

Lots of things now held to be undisputed such as Muhammad's illiteracy were very much debated by Quranic exegetes over the first couple of centuries of Islam.

 

[Sheldon]

It's probably safe to say that the vast majority of the Qur'an is an accurate representation of what Mohamed taught.

I'd have to see sufficient objective evidence for that assertion, before I'd believe it.

However, any discussion of that nature with Muslims is moot, because they believe it to be 100% accurate. So, whatever the Qur'an says is what we have to deal with.

Well the Harry Potter novels make a lot of assertions, but I have reality to measure against them, so I have reality to deal with, and whilst I cannot claim to know what theists believe, or that what their religious tomes claim is false, I can disbelieve them, at least until they demonstrate sufficient objective evidence to support their claims.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Just think how much trouble the rest of the world would be in if Islam had remained the monolith that Mohamed created. At least this way, if they're killing each other, they spend fewer resources trying to subjugate the rest of us as demanded in verse 9:29.

I see that is a wrong conception of what was taught by Muhammad.
Islam did become the beast the Bible foretold with 7 kingdoms and 10 rulers, but it also did a lot for the progress of humanity.
The science and education brought about by the Message Muhammad gave, brought the Christian West out of the dark ages.
If it was not for a branch of Shia Islam, the promises of all the Holy Scriptures would and could not have been fulfilled, as prophecies includes Islam.

Regards Tony

 

[stevecanuck]

I see that is a wrong conception of what was taught by Muhammad.
Islam did become the beast the Bible foretold with 7 kingdoms and 10 rulers, but it also did a lot for the progress of humanity.
The science and education brought about by the Message Muhammad gave, brought the Christian West out of the dark ages.
If it was not for a branch of Shia Islam, the promises of all the Holy Scriptures would and could not have been fulfilled, as prophecies includes Islam.

Regards Tony

Muslims may have contributed to science and education, but it had nothing to do with Mohamed's message.

 

[Augustus]

Just to be clear, what exactly don't you believe about the generally accepted history of early Islam?

The quotes I posted give a good overview of the problems and why many people unfamiliar with contemporary scholarship mistake theology for history.

Was there a Mohamed?

Yes

Did he start in Mecca and then go to Yathri

Probably, but can't be certain

The Quran certainly doesn't appear to have emerged in a pagan backwater though, so the Mecca of Islamic tradition is not likely to be accurate.

Did he oversee the slaughter of the Banu Quraiza?

Maybe, maybe not.

No evidence outside of theological writings from centuries after the fact that contain numerous clear and obvious fabrications.

A bit like the Gospels or Acts of the Apostles (except the Biblical texts were written down much closer to actual events).

Much of the sirah and hadith literature very much seems to have been written to explain difficult or debated passages of the Quran.

Why do you put so much faith in these "historical" texts that contains so many clear and obvious fabrications and were written by people with clear religious agendas in an era when history was almost always a self-serving exercise without a goal of factual accuracy and objectivity?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Muslims may have contributed to science and education, but it had nothing to do with Mohamed's message.

It see it had all to do with what that Message inspired in the hearts of those that accepted that Mesaage.

It appears you have already drawn your conclusions. If so, I wish you all the best and will catch you around.

Regards Tony

 

[stevecanuck]

It see it had all to do with what that Message inspired in the hearts of those that accepted that Mesaage.

It appears you have already drawn your conclusions. If so, I wish you all the best and will catch you around.

Regards Tony

Fair enough, but I can absolutely assure you that there is nothing in Mohamed's message to inspire scientific study. If you have a quote that does so, I would be very interested in seeing it. Thanks.

 

[stevecanuck]

Something just occurred to me. Everything we've been discussing is moot. The veracity of the verses of the Qur'an have nothing to do with the OP. They are what they are, and Muslims accept them as the word of God. And as such, they either follow them or they don't. As I said, my observations of Muslim groups and my knowledge of the Qur'an lead me to believe that Sunni's follow it best.

 

[stevecanuck]

The quotes I posted give a good overview of the problems and why many people unfamiliar with contemporary scholarship mistake theology for history.

Right. I'll look at them.

......

The Quran certainly doesn't appear to have emerged in a pagan backwater though, so the Mecca of Islamic tradition is not likely to be accurate.

Read the Qur'an in chronological order. You'll see how the first 86 surahs could very much have been authored in Mecca.

 

[firedragon]

I see that Allah in control and what happened to the Message of Muhammed and it was foretold in the Bible and By Muhammed Himself. We can not know that wisdom, but to know there is always a reason.

I have discussed this "I see" argument of the Bahai's. I was told that "I have been seeing 48 million dollars every night but it never came".

 

[firedragon]

Read the Qur'an in chronological order. You'll see how the first 86 surahs could very much have been authored in Mecca.

That order is also from hadith.

 

[firedragon]

Technically, yes. However, ask a Sunni if a Shia is a real Muslim, and he'll say no because said Shia is not properly "following Islam".

But that's not a scholarly position. Asking someone somewhere is not a very good understanding of doctrine.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I have discussed this "I see" argument of the Bahai's. I was told that "I have been seeing 48 million dollars every night but it never came".

The I see is based on that I have read this concept in the Message given the Bab and Baha'u'llah, which has a strong God given foundation and not a pious dream.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

The I see is based on that I have read this concept in the Message given the Bab and Baha'u'llah, which has a strong God given foundation and not a pious dream.

Regards Tony

Alright Alright. Cheers.

 

[firedragon]

Just to be clear, what exactly don't you believe about the generally accepted history of early Islam? Was there a Mohamed? Did he start in Mecca and then go to Yathrib? Did he oversee the slaughter of the Banu Quraiza? Where are we?

This whole post is not based on the Qur'an. You are being inconsistent, while also being an ardent, dogmatic believer in ahadith. Its hard to understand how you cannot see this factor.

 

[Augustus]

This whole post is not based on the Qur'an. You are being inconsistent, while also being an ardent, dogmatic believer in ahadith. Its hard to understand how you cannot see this factor.

Strange how you never see any of the many RF "rationalists" who stridently insist no atheist puts great faith in hadiths in these threads