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Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Rival, Jan 13, 2021.

  1. Rival

    Rival Veteran Member
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    This is a question for Muslims mostly but anyone is free to add to the discussion.

    As far as I know, Islam teaches that it is the original religion as practiced by Adam, Noah, Abraham, etc. and I'm wondering how can this be, since Islam includes the sunnah of Muhammad, which surely could not have existed at the time of the Patriarchs, since Muhammad was thousands of years after them? How did they, in your belief, practice Islam?

    Thanks.
     
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  2. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    That's a claim almost all new groups make "we are the best, we are the original, we are the source". I call it PR. Not all PR is truth-based
     
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  3. Eddi

    Eddi eddifying

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    I've often wondered about this too
     
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  4. Musing Bassist

    Musing Bassist Well-Known Member

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    To play Devil's advocate.

    The claim is that the original religion given to man was Abrahamic Monotheism. It was "Islam" in the sense that Islam means submission to the will of the true God.

    Islam as revealed by Muhammad is a later in time correction of the supposed accretions of Judaism and Christianity. I don't think Muslims are claiming Adam had access to the Qur'an or the Sunnah literature.
     
    #4 Musing Bassist, Jan 13, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
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  5. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    Are you sure this is right? After all, the religion was founded by the Prophet.

    Or does it simply mean they followed Islam in its basic meaning, viz. submission to God?
     
  6. Rival

    Rival Veteran Member
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    But what does this imply re behaviour, prayer, etc? This is such a vague term as to be near meaningless for any real discussion.
     
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  7. Rival

    Rival Veteran Member
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    They believe that Abraham built the Ka'aba in Mecca and that he worshipped there, which is obviously not included in any Biblical text. I believe their claim is that all the prophets were Muslims, hence why Abraham apparently built the Ka'aba in Mecca. The Qur'an speaks of Biblical prophets and the messages given them, and I'm not sure why it'd do this if they weren't preaching the same religion?
     
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  8. Rival

    Rival Veteran Member
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    Quran 3:67:

    Ibrāhīm was neither a Jew nor a Christian. But he was upright, a Muslim, and was not one of those who associate partners with Allah.


    Surah Ali 'Imran - 3:67 | Quran.com
     
  9. Musing Bassist

    Musing Bassist Well-Known Member

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    Well, I would reckon that this primeval religion would contain (in the main) the same teachings as taught in Islam today. Although it would necessarily lack many of the specifics of Muhammad's revelation.
     
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  10. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    Well Christians speak of, and revere, the Biblical prophets too, without claiming they were Christian. Why should Muslims not do the same?
     
  11. Rival

    Rival Veteran Member
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    See the Qur'an quote above.

    And because Christianity makes no claim to be the original religion, but Islam makes this claim for itself in the Qur'an:

    He has ordained for you people the same religion as He had enjoined upon Nūh, and that which We have revealed to you (O prophet,) and that which We had enjoined upon Ibrāhīm and Mūsā and ‘Īsā by saying, “Establish the religion, and be not divided therein.” Arduous for the mushriks (polytheists) is that to which you are inviting them. Allah chooses (and pulls) toward Himself anyone He wills, and guides to Himself anyone who turns to Him (to seek guidance).


    Qur'an: 42:13.
     
  12. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    Hence my question in post 5. In other words, what exactly is meant, in this phrase, by "the same religion"? I suspect we have reached the point at which commentary from an informed muslim is needed.;)
     
  13. Rival

    Rival Veteran Member
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    Well 'you' here are the Muslims, so it seems logically to be Islam. I'm not sure how it could be anything else.
     
  14. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    What about my suggestion in post 5?
     
  15. Rival

    Rival Veteran Member
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    How would that be 'the same' religion though? If you took Christianity and eliminated half the practices and beliefs, it would no longer be Christianity.
     
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  16. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    Then it comes down down to what the verse you quote means by religion. It may mean the religion as submission to the same God as the God of Mohammed. After all, there is not much ritual in islam, apart from praying. There are no sacraments, there is not much of a priestly caste (I don't think there is any concept of divine grace being conferred by ordination, for example), so what do you need to follow Islam, apart from belief? Not a lot, it seems to me.
     
  17. Rival

    Rival Veteran Member
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    Things that come to mind off the top of my head:

    -How to rightly make wudu.
    -How to rightly make salat.
    -How to dress oneself, cut one's beard, trim the moustache etc.
    -How to make Hajj.
    -How to make blessings over food, objects etc.
    -Dietary restrictions.
    -Punishments for idolatry, blasphemy etc.
     
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  18. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    A lot of these are just traditions, not fundamental. But let's hear what a muslim has to say. All we are doing is speculating.
     
  19. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    How I see it:

    IF God speaks to human, human has to be well in tune to really understand what God meant. Most humans are still full of ego, so they interpret the words from your quote in an arrogant way full of ego. I can not believe this to be True (originally meant). To me, the below makes more sense.

    Christianity and Jesus stand for Love and Compassion
    Islam and Muhammad stand for Peace

    There is 1 Religion, the Religion of Love. All have Love at their core. Hence not only Islam is the original religion, but also Christianity or Judaism

    Love is the core in all these: Truth, Righteousness, Peace, Non Violence:
    Love as thought is Truth,
    Love as action is Righteous Conduct,
    Love as feeling is Peace,
    Love as understanding is Non-violence.

    Where there is Faith, there is Love;
    Where there is Love, there is Peace;
    Where there is Peace, there is Truth;
    Where there is Truth, there is God;
    Where there is God, there is Bliss.
    @stvdvRF
     
    #19 stvdv, Jan 13, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
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  20. Rival

    Rival Veteran Member
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    I think I can find many of them in the Qur'an. Challenge accepted :D

    Wudu:

    O you who have believed, when you rise to [perform] prayer, wash your faces and your forearms to the elbows and wipe over your heads and wash your feet to the ankles. And if you are in a state of janabah, then purify yourselves. But if you are ill or on a journey or one of you comes from the place of relieving himself or you have contacted women and do not find water, then seek clean earth and wipe over your faces and hands with it. Allah does not intend to make difficulty for you, but He intends to purify you and complete His favor upon you that you may be grateful.

    Quran 5:6.

    Salat:

    Say, “Call upon Allah or call upon the Most Merciful. Whichever [name] you call – to Him belong the best names.” And do not recite [too] loudly in your prayer or [too] quietly but seek between that an [intermediate] way.

    17:110

    O you who have believed, let those whom your right hands possess and those who have not [yet] reached puberty among you ask permission of you [before entering] at three times: before the dawn prayer and when you put aside your clothing [for rest] at noon and after the night prayer. [These are] three times of privacy for you. There is no blame upon you nor upon them beyond these [periods], for they continually circulate among you – some of you, among others. Thus does Allah make clear to you the verses; and Allah is Knowing and Wise.

    24:58.

    O you who have believed, do not approach prayer while you are intoxicated until you know what you are saying or in a state of janabah, except those passing through [a place of prayer], until you have washed [your whole body]. And if you are ill or on a journey or one of you comes from the place of relieving himself or you have contacted women and find no water, then seek clean earth and wipe over your faces and your hands [with it]. Indeed, Allah is ever Pardoning and Forgiving.

    4:43

    Women's dress:

    “And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear therof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, or their brothers' sons or their sisters' sons, or their women or the servants whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex, and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O you Believers, turn you all together towards Allah, that you may attain Bliss.”

    24:31.

    “O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.”

    33:59

    Hajj:

    Just see here I guess Verses in Quran about Hajj | Submission.org - Your best source for Submission (Islam)

    Blessings:

    Al-Fatihah comes to mind.

    Diet:

    He has only forbidden to you dead animals, blood, the flesh of swine, and that which has been dedicated to other than Allah . But whoever is forced [by necessity], neither desiring [it] nor transgressing [its limit], there is no sin upon him. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

    2:173.

    Obviously stuff like idol worship etc. is in the Qur'an and the punishment in death and going to Hell.

    (Sorry, I'm just really bored :p I'm not actually arguing with you :tearsofjoy: )
     
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