Suicide

[DrCash7]

My point is that even after seeking help, and consulting others that these people are still faced with the same issue: take the lives of others or simply take your own life. If a person truly wants to take the life of someone else then there is nothing that can ever stop them, except death. Suicide is defined as the act or an instance of intentionally killing oneself. Euthanasia is not what I was referring to. That would be more closely defined to murder if the "relief" is administered by someone else other than the actual first party. I guess before we go any further we have to agree on one thing: Do you agree that there are certain times when suicide is a legitimate answer? Personally I do. No it is not an answer for EVERY bad situation, but there are some situations in which suicide is the best (not easiest) way to resolve the situations. I will agree that there may not be many but I argue that there are some--some in which it is not a selfish act at all. Just imagine: a person has exausted all other means for help. All that is left is either a difficult (because there is nothing easy about suicide) but quick end to it, or a drown out painful end to it.

 

[DrCash7]

Yes, I have plenty of typo's in my last two postings... please forgive my human-ness.

 

[Ormiston]

What does your religion have to say about suicide? Is it accepted or recognized in any way? Do those who commit suicide still go to heaven, or do they automatically go to hell? Why?

What about those of us who don't believe in an afterlife. What do you think about suicide?

I don't think suicide is evil, I think it is expected. No one has ever asked to be born. It certainly doesn't aid civilization in any way and, to me, it makes sense to outlaw it. I don't think suicide impacts the victim in any way after the fact. It's simply tragic.

 

[painted wolf]

Death with dignaty has always been a part of most Native American cultures. Death was not something to fear, but to face bravely as part of life.
Some elders would choose to simply walk into the woods during the winter to die quietly.
Some would go on brave 'missions' that would lead more than likely to death, usually in battle or on raids.
So no, there was no taboo on suicide, you could not go to 'hell' for it. Infact there are many stories of the self-sacrifice of brave people who chose to die to help others.

wa:do

 

[DrCash7]

Death with dignaty has always been a part of most Native American cultures. Death was not something to fear, but to face bravely as part of life.
Some elders would choose to simply walk into the woods during the winter to die quietly.
Some would go on brave 'missions' that would lead more than likely to death, usually in battle or on raids.
So no, there was no taboo on suicide, you could not go to 'hell' for it. Infact there are many stories of the self-sacrifice of brave people who chose to die to help others.

wa:do

Yeah that's what I was gonna say but he beat me to it...:banghead3

 

[Prima]

I think it is expected. No one has ever asked to be born

I don't find suicide expected at all. The excuse that 'I didn't ask for this' isn't necessarily true - do you know what existed before this life? are you sure you didn't ask for this?

I object to the Native American comparison. Death with dignity is completely different from suicide. Death with dignity is choosing the way you die, but it is not speeding up your death. Similarly, accepting a mission that leads to death is just that - accepting it. However, suicide is actively seeking death. It's like 'death comes to me' instead of 'I go to death'

 

[painted wolf]

depends on who was doing the dying... some did it out of sorrow, wanting to be with dead loved ones.
The idea was that you picked or knew your time of death. Some spead it up, some just accepted the inevitable and didn't want to linger.

wa:do

 

[Prima]

But even picking and knowing your time of death isn't the same as actually taking your own life.

 

[Katzpur]

do you know what existed before this life? are you sure you didn't ask for this?

Hi, Prima.

I hope I'm not wandering too far off the topic of the opening post, but I really am curious as to what you mean by these questions. Would you care to elaborate?

In response to the questions asked in the opening post, the LDS (Mormon) view on suicide is that "a person who takes his own life may not be responsible for his acts. Only God can judge such a matter.... The body of a person who has committed suicide is not dishonored, [and] normal funeral procedures are followed."

Kathryn

 

[painted wolf]

running up to an enemy camp and shouting *boo* is pretty darn close :biglaugh:
Walking out into a snowstorm without winter cloths (on purpose) is definatly suicidal.

how is it different than putting a gun to your head?

wa:do

 

[DrCash7]

running up to an enemy camp and shouting *boo* is pretty darn close :biglaugh:
Walking out into a snowstorm without winter cloths (on purpose) is definatly suicidal.

how is it different than putting a gun to your head?

wa:do

Touche'

 

[jewscout]

My point is that even after seeking help, and consulting others that these people are still faced with the same issue: take the lives of others or simply take your own life. If a person truly wants to take the life of someone else then there is nothing that can ever stop them, except death.

OR the could choose NOT to kill someone...if you can choose to kill yourself you can CHOOSE to find other avenues...there is an option C in this equation

I guess before we go any further we have to agree on one thing: Do you agree that there are certain times when suicide is a legitimate answer?

if you are on you death bed in agonizing pain or a vegtable i have no problem w/ Euthenasia...other than that...no

Just imagine: a person has exausted all other means for help. All that is left is either a difficult (because there is nothing easy about suicide) but quick end to it, or a drown out painful end to it.

then IMPO they have either, A. not looked hard enough for help or B. never wanted it in the first place

though i know many will disagree with me but i find suicide a very selfish act.
suicide is the easy way out. PERIOD
it's living life and going through the tests of life that is the hard part

 

[michel]

From Choices in Dying, a UU pamphlet:


Well, I don't believe UU has an official stance on suicide that is not assisted suicide for terminally ill people, other than that it is tragic and we should seek to help any individuals who are thinking about taking that step. People who take their own lives are people who are deeply troubled, either mentally, or with something they are dealing with in their life. UUs want to extend hope and comfort to all people, and that would certainly include suicidal people.

Being Universalists, we do not believe anyone goes to hell, because there is no such place. However, those of us UUs who do believe in some sort of afterlife (my opinion here) would say that a person who committs suicide in this life, will not have their problems erased by the next, they will simply have another chance to deal with them properly. Have you seen the movie "What Dreams May Come" ? I think that movie gets it mostly right, at least with the way I view the afterlife.

We, as most forum member who know me reasonably well know, I have attempted suicide on three or four occasions.

All but one of the attempts were at a time of real turmoil - the first time, I was 16, and thought that a boy who had once tried to kill me in Boarding school was coming after me (somehow the guys at my new school heard a rumour, and thought it would be fun to make me think this guy was after my blood).

The next couple were in a state of sheer desperation - I felt totally incapable of carrying on with life, although my beliefs by then included reincarnation - which would have meant, to me, as Maize said, that I would have to reincarnate in a similar situation to overcome the problem.

The last attempt was calculated, cold blooded - a sincere realization that I felt that I had lived too much, had tried so desperatly to be 'normal' - but was constantly failing. The only way I have managed to cope with trying to live a normal life has been by bouts of self harming, anorexia, bulimia, alcoholism, smoking (Cigarettes only) - you name it, I have done it (appart from 'recreational Drugs - the only reason being that I have always been too scared to go down that road).

The last time, I had convinced myself that what I was doing was giving a genuine 'gift' to my wife and Children (this was about five/six years ago)- in that my wife would have been young enough to remarry; my sons were both old enough to understand.

All the attempts have been 'real' - the only reason that I have failed on each occasion has been through sheer happenstance (people coming home much earlier than expected - etc.).

I have now become resolved to the idea that I am not 'permitted' to end my own life, and that, at 56, it would be a shame to loose the 'kudos' of all the suffering that I have undergonne, only to be faced with more of the same in an other life. I cope - there is nothing more that can be said - I cope. I have stopped smoking, and have not had a drop of alcohool sice May 8th- when I decided to stop drinking of my own volition.

The reason for tying this up in Maize's answer is that my 'religion' might well be U.U - that is what I call myself, although I still have remnants of Christianity, and Buddhism. Maize's opinion of how my religion would look upon my attempts are well said by her; the only 'fly in the oitment' being the repurcussions on my wife and sons - they are the only reason I am alive today.

If, for some unexplainable reason, the three of them were not arround (but this is purely hypothetical, because the odds are that they will be - I would volunteer immediately for aid work in Africa - where I was born. If I were to be killed trying to help others, well, that would be a bonus.

 

[Ardhanariswar]

i dont think euthanasia is bad. but if everyone does it, its kinda wrong. I mean, what kind of society have we created where people feel the need to die? the problem is not in euthanasia, the problem is our weak solutions (if any) to solving these medical, finiancial, and social, etc., problems.