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Sufism

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Salam

I promised @The Hammer I would share my opinion.

The good:

Their spiritual language is very enlightening and shows the link of God with his creation. They might over emphasize the likeness aspect of creation with God as opposed to transcendence but this is fine, because they already know Quran and Sunnah emphasizes on the transcendence and people won't go astray.

Some expressions by Sufis such as:

"We are non-existence showing existence"
"The biggest sin is your own existence"

are paradoxes literally, but when understood from their proper context and angles, are very enlightening.

They emphasize on love of God and that the Prophet (s) is not disconnected from guiding his followers, but alive, and all Prophets (a) alive and helping.

They also (in the past more so then now) heavily emphasized on Ali (a) and rest of Twelve Imams (a) as being the spiritual poles or magnets of their time, pulling spiritually creation to God.

Thus Twelve Imams (a) have a special position in Sufism.

The bad:

Sufis over all make their own rituals aside from Islamic rituals prescribed by the Prophet (s). This is condemned.

They also give a lot of lip service to Ahlulbayt (a) and Twelve Imams (a) yet don't support them politically in that they don't emphasize they are meant for government as well.

They also don't give too much weight to their words as transmitted by the Shiites, so seems like lip service to me, but not truly loving Ahlulbayt (a) but using them to follow their own leaders.

Sometimes they conjecture about important beliefs, for example, believing hell is temporary despite the numerous verses about forever nature of hell, and warning not to stay "numbered days" as that would lead to apathy and lack of Taqwa (fear and guarding against God).
 

questfortruth

Well-Known Member
Salam

It has to do with the concept of "fana" which means annihilation into God.
Not all theological concepts are good if human is not mentally strong.
There is even the religion called Satanism. It is also not good for mental health.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Not all theological concepts are good if psychics is not strong.
Salam

It has to do with the hadith about believers, ending with "...when I love him, I become his hearing by which he hears, his sight by which he sees, and his tongue by which he speaks..."
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Salam

It has to do with the concept of "fana" which means annihilation into God.
surrendering to the love that is god is the destruction of self to the will of allahu akbar.

god is greater than a prophet. muhammad is no more if he has annihilated himself into god. god would not be a respecter of muhammad over another even if he is the last prophet.

this is the biggest stumbling block to moslems. you can't have it both ways. you can't serve two masters

the ideal is to surrender to god, not to a man, or a prophet.
 

questfortruth

Well-Known Member
Salam

It has to do with the hadith about believers, ending with "...when I love him, I become his hearing by which he hears, his sight by which he sees, and his tongue by which he speaks..."
It is long.
But the shortest most clear formulation "The biggest sin is your own existence" can cause the most simple solution -- suicide. Latter is sin in Eastern Orthodox Christianity.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
surrendering to the love that is god is the destruction of self to the will of allahu akbar.

god is greater than a prophet. muhammad is no more if he has annihilated himself into god. god would not be a respecter of muhammad over another even if he is the last prophet.

this is the biggest stumbling block to moslems. you can't have it both ways. you can't serve two masters

God and Mohammad (s) and Ali (a) and Fatima (a) and the their holy offspring are my sole Authority in religion (5:55). The Mastership is one, as God's light is the master in all that. God is far above Ahlulbayt (a) but Ahlulbayt (a) are far above past Ahlulbayts (a), and all Ahlulbayts (a) are far exalted above creation including Adam's (a) Ahlulbayt (a) including Nuh (a).

Believers exalt and humble themselves to the holy intercessors who are the path to God from Adam (a) to the Mahdi (a). We don't ever see we maybe on par with them.

Believers reach greatness much greater then their enemies who are enviers of God's chosen, but believers don't reach status of exalted chosen ones.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It is long.
But the shortest most clear formulation "The biggest sin is your own existence" can cause the most simple solution -- suicide. Latter is sin in Eastern Orthodox Christianity.
Sure, but no one understands it that way.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Salam

The most important concept of Sufism, is that God is seen/not seen, at the same time. Ibn Arabi described this in detail and his famous Fusus became famous for that reason.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
yet don't support them politically

Sufism is not political.

Sometimes they conjecture about important beliefs

Not all sufis are Muslims. This is especially true for The Chisti order in India and in Western countries.

In addition "conjecture" is not a word sufis would use: Knowing is beyond conjecture and supposition.

Cross and Christians, end to end, i examined. He was not on the Cross. I went to the Hindu Temple, to the ancient pagoda. In none of them there was any sign. To the heights of Herat I went and to Kandhar, I looked. He was not on the elevation not on the low lands.

Resolutely I went to summit of the fabulous mountain of Ka'af. There was only the dwelling of the Anqa bird.I went to Kaaba at Mecca. He was not there. I asked him from Avicenna the philosopher. He was beyond the range of Avicenna, I looked into my own heart. In that place I saw him.

He was in no other place.

--Rumi
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Sufism is not political.

Salam

True while Islam is. Hence what I put in the "bad".

In addition "conjecture" is not a word sufis would use: Knowing is beyond conjecture and supposition.

If they know something that contradicts the Quran, might as well, not follow Quran, instead of twisting Quran beyond repair over an issue.

I left Islam and became a mystic that believe in Wahdatal Wujood, Angels, spirituality, telepathy, magic, etc, and only worshiped God, when I had a psychology issue with hell. If you can't accept a clear concept in Quran, just leave the religion, don't twist it left, right and centre.

I would say it's more honest to leave a religion then twist a religion, if your beliefs don't match up. @KWED thinks I'm twisting Quranic interpretation for current-century, but, I've made the statement before, if Quran is proven to condone slavery, I would leave Islam as I am human first and foremost, then a Muslim.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
If they know something that contradicts the Quran, might as well, not follow Quran, instead of twisting Quran beyond repair over an issue.

You're "twisting Quran" could be understanding in a different way. I am by no means knowledgeable about the Quran, but I formed my thought that there is a way of reading it beyond Shariat. For example:the book "The Sufis" by Idres Shaw talks about multiple meanings for a single word. For example "QLB" could be
  • QaLB - heart
  • QaLaB - turn something upside down "The world is upside down"
  • QaLaB - extract the marrow of a palm tree (extract the essence)
  • QaLaB - become red
  • AQLaB - baked on one side - referring to a part of the transformation process..
The letters Q + L + B = 132 and "Muhammad" M+H+M+M+D = 132 that is the heart is the essence of Muhammad
(pg 388)
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
God and Mohammad (s) and Ali (a) and Fatima (a) and the their holy offspring are my sole Authority in religion (5:55). The Mastership is one, as God's light is the master in all that. God is far above Ahlulbayt (a) but Ahlulbayt (a) are far above past Ahlulbayts (a), and all Ahlulbayts (a) are far exalted above creation including Adam's (a) Ahlulbayt (a) including Nuh (a).

Believers exalt and humble themselves to the holy intercessors who are the path to God from Adam (a) to the Mahdi (a). We don't ever see we maybe on par with them.

Believers reach greatness much greater then their enemies who are enviers of God's chosen, but believers don't reach status of exalted chosen ones.
then self can never be annhilated into god as long as you cling to mmuhammad. The part of Islam is that clings to Muhammad or any created thing is a barrier between. The spirit of god that dwells in all is the Teacher. Muhammad is no more. Even Gabriel one day will submit, surrender and be no more. I'm a slave/servant to God. I surrender to no prophets and no men exclusively.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You're "twisting Quran" could be understanding in a different way. I am by no means knowledgeable about the Quran, but I formed my thought that there is a way of reading it beyond Shariat. For example:the book "The Sufis" by Idres Shaw talks about multiple meanings for a single word. For example "QLB" could be
  • QaLB - heart
  • QaLaB - turn something upside down "The world is upside down"
  • QaLaB - extract the marrow of a palm tree (extract the essence)
  • QaLaB - become red
  • AQLaB - baked on one side - referring to a part of the transformation process..
The letters Q + L + B = 132 and "Muhammad" M+H+M+M+D = 132 that is the heart is the essence of Muhammad
(pg 388)

Salam

I understand, there is layers of Quranic meaning. This is not disputed. As you know I've made threads about the mysterious letters of Quran. Noticing subtle things in Quran doesn't mean unclear, in fact, often, we come to greater mental clarity about Quran when reflecting over it's subtleness.

However, you always have to resort to what is clear to get what is unclear to you. Even Alif Lam Meem can become clear who it is and who it refers to by Quran, when the first time reading Quran, we probably have no clue why God is saying three letters that don't mean a word. And "spiritually deep" does not mean not clear. If you can prove a mystery in Quran, this is fine, as long reasoning with clear is used.There is a lot to Quran, it has endless doors opening doors.

As for numerology with Arabic letters, I believe on personal research, it came after Quran and it's part of a system that is meant to make Quran look cooler, but also a way distort it. It leads to Ilmel Jafr and Zodiac star stuff, which is Seher world type things, Imams (a) taught us to say "I do not look towards the stars of sorcerers".
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The amazing part of Islam is that moslems place Muhammad as a teacher. Muhammad himself was taught. The spirit of god that dwells in all is the Teacher. Muhammad is no more. Even Gabriel will must submit, surrender and be no more. I'm a slave to God. I surrender to no prophets and no man.

Salam

Mohammad (s) is alive to me, he resides in the sky/heaven of this world, else, God would not have ordered me to say "peace be upon you O you who is Prophet..." in Salah.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Salam

Mohammad (s) is alive to me, he resides in the sky/heaven of this world, else, God would not have ordered me to say "peace be upon you O you who is Prophet..." in Salah.
The message is God's. The messenger too. Muhammad is no equal to God. Even the angel who taught Muhammad is not to be worshipped, idolized.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The message is God's. The messenger too. Muhammad is no equal to God. Even the angel who taught Muhammad is not to be worshipped, idolized.
Salam

Worship is relative to exalting. If we worship God but don't exalt Mohammad (s), it's a hypocrisy. We worship God out of ego then. And exalting is linked to honoring. If we exalt God's chosen but don't honor believers, we use God and his exalted for our ego, and our worship will be in vain.

Worship God, exalt chosen ones, and honor believers. This is the secret of Allahul-Aliyul-Atheem in Quran and Sunnah. God is the Exalted, the Great.

Obviously if God is God, he is exalted, so why emphasize on it. And if he is exalted, he is great, so why emphasize on it.

The emphasis is to link God with exalted intercessors and to link that with honoring the believers.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
You're "twisting Quran" could be understanding in a different way. I am by no means knowledgeable about the Quran, but I formed my thought that there is a way of reading it beyond Shariat. For example:the book "The Sufis" by Idres Shaw talks about multiple meanings for a single word. For example "QLB" could be
  • QaLB - heart
  • QaLaB - turn something upside down "The world is upside down"
  • QaLaB - extract the marrow of a palm tree (extract the essence)
  • QaLaB - become red
  • AQLaB - baked on one side - referring to a part of the transformation process..
The letters Q + L + B = 132 and "Muhammad" M+H+M+M+D = 132 that is the heart is the essence of Muhammad
(pg 388)
The interpretation reveals the heart of the interpreter. If the focus is upon anything but God, then one is witnessing the betrayal of god.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Salam

Worship is relative to exalting. If we worship God but don't exalt Mohammad (s), it's a hypocrisy. We worship God out of ego then. And exalting is linked to honoring. If we exalt God's chosen but don't honor believers, we use God and his exalted for our ego, and our worship will be in vain.

Worship God, exalt chosen ones, and honor believers. This is the secret of Allahul-Aliyul-Atheem in Quran and Sunnah. God is the Exalted, the Great.

Obviously if God is God, he is exalted, so why emphasize on it. And if he is exalted, he is great, so why emphasize on it.

The emphasis is to link God with exalted intercessors and to link that with honoring the believers.
God doesn't need intercessors Men like Muhammad do.

He who fears God wants an intercessor. They that love God want direct experience.
 
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