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Featured Suffering

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by joe1776, Aug 1, 2022.

  1. joe1776

    joe1776 Well-Known Member

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    p1 If a Creator exists (conditional premise),

    p2 We humans were created with free will and with a conscience enabling us to discern right from wrong.

    p3 Good behavior eases suffering while bad behavior contributes to it.

    p3 A world without suffering would present no challenge to motivate good behavior over bad.

    p4 We humans have indeed been making moral progress. We have learned to treat each other far better today than at any time in the distant past.

    c1 Therefore, if a Creator exists, it's likely that life was set up as a learning process. Suffering was needed as a challenge to motivate good behavior over bad.

    We are born with the basic structure of conscience. Paul Bloom, Yale psychologist quote:
    Paul Bloom Quotes

    We humans have been making moral progress
    Chart: The Historical Trend of Moral Progress
     
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  2. Orbit

    Orbit I'm a planet

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    Sounds like circular reasoning to me. Quite a few leaps of faith in there, too.
     
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  3. Dogknox20

    Dogknox20 Well-Known Member

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    joe1776 Good to meet you...
    Love is giving of self, it is letting go of self for another person!
    Giving Alms. Is letting go of you treasure.!
    Giving Prayer is letting go of your time!
    Giving your Talents is helping other in ways they can't!
    These three are a form of suffering because it is done with love!

    To give your life for another person is the ultimate form of suffering! Jesus gave himself completely.. He let go of his life his soul and his divinity!
    Jesus gave himself so completely that he wants us to Eat his flesh the wants to be completely consumed because he has Perfect Love!
    God is perfect; God is Love!
    God gave us free will because God made us in his image... God is LOVE! To "Love" you must have free Will! ONLY...

    joe1776
    only man can love: Pigs, Snails, Chicken, Sheep Cows etc cannot love! To love you MUST FREELY give of self if you are forced to Give of yourself then your love would not be true love!

    Free Will means there will be some men who decide FREELY NOT to love!
     
  4. joe1776

    joe1776 Well-Known Member

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    But you are unable to say how my reasoning is circular or to identify those leaps of faith?
     
  5. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    Interesting concept. Makes we wonder why this creator god chose to use suffering to teach people instead of reward. The carrot is often more effective that the stick, and in my opinion is a more moral method to use. Children in a classroom tend to learn better when they are made to feel good about giving the right answer instead of being made to feel bad about giving the wrong answer.
     
  6. The Hammer

    The Hammer Fork-Beard
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    Creators or not. Suffering is a way to let us know we are doing something wrong, or some part of us needs addressing.
     
  7. Koldo

    Koldo Incredible Member

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    If the intent is to motivate good behavior, then why isn't good behavior able to supersede the outcomes of bad behavior?

    For example, if someone can chop off your arm just for fun (I take it you would agree that would be bad behavior), why isn't any good behavior able to replace it?
     
  8. Koldo

    Koldo Incredible Member

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    There might be no way to address it and you might not be doing anything wrong.
     
  9. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    That is simply god-awful.
     
  10. joe1776

    joe1776 Well-Known Member

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    My argument dealt only with suffering, however conscience deals in both reward and punishment. We feel guilt when we have treated someone badly and when we have treated them with unusual kindness, we feel good about it.

    Reward alone can be effective Punishment alone can be effective. But together they are very powerful. That's why the Christian offer of Heaven for believers and Hell for non-believers works so well.
     
  11. The Hammer

    The Hammer Fork-Beard
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    In the case of chronic conditions fwiw, it may be unaddressable, but it still lets you know what's wrong.
     
  12. Koldo

    Koldo Incredible Member

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    Actually, it doesn't even let you know what's wrong. Just that something's wrong. Whether there is anything that can be done about it...
     
  13. joe1776

    joe1776 Well-Known Member

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    What have we done wrong when we suffer because of someone else's wrongdoing or when nature causes the suffering?
     
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  14. The Hammer

    The Hammer Fork-Beard
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    That's better than not knowing anything is wrong at all.
     
  15. The Hammer

    The Hammer Fork-Beard
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    Nothing. Nature and Life is unfair.
     
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  16. Koldo

    Koldo Incredible Member

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    Depends!! Sometimes the pain can be unbearable.
    It would be great if we could shut down the pain after a while, like saying: I got it! Enough!
     
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  17. The Hammer

    The Hammer Fork-Beard
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    and try we shall
     
  18. joe1776

    joe1776 Well-Known Member

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    I have no idea. Your question goes beyond the limits of my argument.
     
  19. Orbit

    Orbit I'm a planet

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    I am able. First, your conclusion assumes there is a God. Second your first premise assumes there is a God. Circular.
     
  20. Koldo

    Koldo Incredible Member

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    Then I reject your conclusion. If the entire purpose of suffering is to motivate good behavior but suffering can't be overcome with good behavior then it follows that suffering has some other role (or maybe no role).
     
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