Suffering

[SalixIncendium]

to me this comes adross as pointing to one's own attachment and desire...
However, if you put it in general terms, it becomes victim blaming when crime is involved, very much in the way Muslims blame victims or even Buddhists do, if @Conscious thoughts has it right.

If you suffer because someone else makes you suffer, the last thing you want to hear is "you yourself are to be blamed for it".
In times of suffering that is inflicted by others, people have a lot lot of work to do in processing what has happened.
Snide remars such as "you yourself are to be blamed for it" worsen everything, in my view.
People that already suffer, suffer twice because of these "very wise" remarks issued by their enivronment....

But maybe I got you wrong.

At any rate, Jesus set an example of suffering without being guilty, that's my view of the Bible story.

Read my posts about the difference between pain and suffering. One can inflict pain. As I see it, it is the person themselves that inflicts suffering upon themselves as a result of attachment to that pain.

Again, I am speaking of duhkha when I’m speaking of suffering, as there is really no better translation from Sanskrit to English for the term than suffering.

 

[thomas t]

Read my posts about the difference between pain and suffering. One can inflict pain. As I see it, it is the person themselves that inflicts suffering upon themselves as a result of attachment to that pain.

When you're in prison for expressing your views... you will suffer.
And it is NOT the person themselves that inflicts suffering upon themselves.
Imprisonating people for opinion ... is what makes them suffer.
Just as an example.

Additionally, if you have children and you end up in prison for having said a wrong word... the children will suffer. And please don't blame the children.

 

[SalixIncendium]

That doesn't work always.
When you're in prison for expressing your views... you will suffer.

First, if I’m in prison it’s because of my attachment or desire to expressing my beliefs.

Second, how will I suffer?

 

[SalixIncendium]

@thomas t, I see you edited after I replied.

And it is NOT the person themselves that inflicts suffering upon themselves.
Imprisonating people for opinion ... is what makes them suffer.
Just as an example.

How does it make them suffer?

Additionally, if you have children and you end up in prison for having said a wrong word... the children will suffer. And please don't blame the children.

The children will suffer how? Because of attachment to having a father and what he brings to the table?

Everything you have said supports my point that suffering is a result of attachment and desire.

 

[capumetu]

Actually, Romans 5:12 does not address the issue of suffering. Instead, it talks about death.
Two different subjects. Death was simply mentioned Tom, suffering as well was a result of inherited sin

Actually, Gen 3:5 does not indicate that Adam wanted to be his own God. It is a quote from Satan and it is before Adam even ate the fruit.
In case you meant Genesis 3:6?... even in there, it is only written that Adam ate the fruit. The motive you ascribe to this is your speculation, I think.

satan made the implication to Eve, regardless of the reason she chose, the implication was that they would become their own god, freely choosing for themselves right or wrong. That has been the history of our society. Imagine how the world would be if everyone chose to be obedient to God's laws. No doubt, you can see the distinction.

 

[thomas t]

How does it make them suffer?

lack of freedom.
Human rights abuses are on the abuser.
Not on the victims who suffer.

The children will suffer how?

they need their parents.
Well in this case, yeah, it's the attachment, indeed.
It's natural. It's a natural healthy attachment, I think.

 

[SalixIncendium]

lack of freedom.
Human rights abuses are on the abuser.
Not on the victims who suffer.

Is freedom not an attachment or desire?

they need their parents.
Well in this case, yeah, it's the attachment, indeed.
It's natural. It's a natural healthy attachment, I think.

An attachment, nonetheless. And not a “need,” but a desire based purely on a social axiom. A child can survive without parents, and even survive without suffering.

 

[thomas t]

Is freedom not an attachment or desire?



An attachment, nonetheless. And not a “need,” but a desire based purely on a social axiom. A child can survive without parents, and even survive without suffering.

I need freedom, regardless of what you call it,
and children need parents.
Children with no parents more likely to have lower IQ, according to new research

 

[SalixIncendium]

I need freedom, regardless of what you call it,
and children need parents.
Children with no parents more likely to have lower IQ, according to new research

You and I clearly have very different definitions for the word “need.”

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Yes

Do you feel attached to your wife?
I would hope so...

Do you desire her?
You won't be getting babies if you don't.

So, are these bad things?

 

[thomas t]

satan made the implication to Eve, regardless of the reason she chose, the implication was that they would become their own god, freely choosing for themselves right or wrong. That has been the history of our society. Imagine how the world would be if everyone chose to be obedient to God's laws. No doubt, you can see the distinction.

look, that does address the point made.
I said that Gen 3:5 does not indicate that Adam wanted to be like God.
But if you just wanted to post some further thought, it's ok.

 

[Spirit of Light]

to me this comes adross as pointing to one's own attachment and desire...
However, if you put it in general terms, it becomes victim blaming when crime is involved, very much in the way Muslims blame victims or even Buddhists do, if @Conscious thoughts has it right.

If you suffer because someone else makes you suffer, the last thing you want to hear is "you yourself are to be blamed for it".
In times of suffering that is inflicted by others, people have a lot lot of work to do in processing what has happened.
Snide remars such as "you yourself are to be blamed for it" worsen everything, in my view.
People that already suffer, suffer twice because of these "very wise" remarks issued by their enivronment....

But maybe I got you wrong.

At any rate, Jesus set an example of suffering without being guilty, that's my view of the Bible story.

My answers was not to put blame on others i speak only toward my own experience, i can not speak for others

 

[Spirit of Light]

Do you feel attached to your wife?
I would hope so...

Do you desire her?
You won't be getting babies if you don't.

So, are these bad things?

I do not feel attached to other human beings no, and no i have no wish for having my own chlidren

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I do not feel attached to other human beings no

So if your wife dies tomorrow (//knocks on wood), you won't care at all?




Come on now..........
You don't expect me to believe that, do you?

and no i have no wish for having my own chlidren

Every single baby is the result of a person desiring another person.
If people had no such desires, the human species would go extinct.
How can such desire be bad thing then?

 

[Spirit of Light]

So if your wife dies tomorrow (//knocks on wood), you won't care at all?




Come on now..........
You don't expect me to believe that, do you?





Every single baby is the result of a person desiring another person.
If people had no such desires, the human species would go extinct.
How can such desire be bad thing then?

First of all, i do not have a wife i was together with a muslim women for a short time, but her family was not happy with us as a couple so she asked nicly to be allowed to end the relationship, and i accepted her wish.

When it comes to children, there is no wish from me to have children. It is to high responsibility to have.

I do not say it is wrong to have children if one have a solid relationship and are married, and i do not speak for others, only for how i personally see it.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I wish to know which verse you are referring to specifically by saying "Biblically, one of my key roles for example, is to fulfill my spouse's desires and help her."

Why do you wish to know this? Are you a Christian husband?

 

[capumetu]

look, that does address the point made.
I said that Gen 3:5 does not indicate that Adam wanted to be like God.
But if you just wanted to post some further thought, it's ok.

Doesn't matter Tom, that is what happened, they became their own gods. As a result of their disobedience, we have had to live under satan's laws and mans. Jehovah granted that in His wisdom, fully realizing that they would bring His righteous system to extinction if He doesn't step in. Jesus assured us however that God will not allow us to extinct ourselves Mat 24:22

 

[thomas t]

Doesn't matter Tom,

if you make a claim about a Bible passage, and you can't back it up, It's bad, it's bad.
People should refrain from making theories and pass it of as Bible truths.
If you can't back it up it is presumption.
Even if in other contexts the subject of what you presume doesn't matter indeed.

 

[capumetu]

if you make a claim about a Bible passage, and you can't back it up, It's bad, it's bad.
People should refrain from making theories and pass it of as Bible truths.
If you can't back it up it is presumption.
Even if in other contexts the subject of what you presume doesn't matter indeed.

History reveals what I said sir, you simply disagree which of course is your prerogative.

 

[thomas t]

History reveals what I said sir, you simply disagree which of course is your prerogative.

no.
You can't prove your point.
That's all.
You said:
"Adam's request to be his own god Gen 3:5"
Regardless of what Satan told Eve in this verse, Adam ate the fruit one verse later.
It could have been anything as a request.
Maybe he requested to be not less less intelligent than his wife Eve.
Maybe he requested Eve to stop seducing him.
Maybe he requested to show off his liberal attitude towards things.
Maybe this, maybe that.
I just don't like jumping to conclusions too quickly on the basis of mere presumption.
Bible is no more precise than what is said in Genesis 3:5-6. Why are you.