Suffering

[Buddha Dharma]

This thread seems necessary after seeing the varying opinions of RF users on the reality of suffering. It seems that suffering needs a thread to further discuss it, examine ideas of it, and see if there's any consensus to arise at about it.

I will present three views about suffering that exist in the mainstream as a starting point, and feel free to introduce others I may skip over. This is merely for the convenience of getting us started.

Position A: Suffering is not ideal and should be ended

Position B: Suffering is not ideal, but it helps us grow, know what bad is, and develops character- so it shouldn't necessarily end

Position C: Suffering is beautiful. If we embrace suffering we'll be sharing in the burden of God/Christ for all creation. Suffering presents us with a chance to be God/Christ, and suffer with him.

Buddhism seems to take A&B together. Suffering is absolutely bad from a Buddhist perspective, but at the same time- it has been reflected on by various masters as a way of seeing the futility of clinging to love of the world and possessions.

Suffering has a use in Buddhism- if and only if it brings one to practice, so that it can be ultimately overcome. That things suffer is not somehow virtuous or ideal from a Buddhist perspective.

I've encountered those that tend to be of Position B only. That suffering might be not ideal, but there are reasons it should continue.

This position is often set up in opposition to the Buddhist perspective. We are asked to consider that suffering makes us grow, or it causes us to overcome hurdles.

I think those that often hold to Position B do not realize they are arguing for Position A. Some of them may not even realize they stand with Position A concerning suffering.

Allow me to expound. I will attempt to show that Position B as often argued, is an extension of Position A. Most people arguing for Position B do not actually think suffering is ideal or good. Actually, if they did think so- I'd ask why suffering is a catalyst for overcoming in their perspective.

This argues that suffering is not good, and it's only usefulness is in pushing humans to overcome it. Position B typically is not that suffering is good, or should remain. Position B is more an active application of Position A.

That's why I think the two are probably more interrelated than often realized. Position A will usually lead one to Position B- because Position A is the motivator.

I don't think those arguing that suffering has a use are necessarily making a good case for it's being good or desirable. Yet often, when coming up against Buddhists- suffering is frequently appealed to that way.

Suffering is said to be useful and even admirable from a certain outlook, so Buddhism's desire to end it is short-sighted.

As stated, I don't think those that hold Position B while rejecting A are thinking through their premises very well. They are not in fact saying that being in suffering is good.

There are those that do hold such a position. Many of those can be relegated to what I defined above as Position C. This view is typically held by Christians of a certain sort. Mother Theresa is a good example of this kind of approach to suffering.

In a certain way, she stated many times during her life that suffering is beautiful. That she feels like suffering is the passion ever present. That she sees Christ when she looks at suffering.

I don't want to take up fifty paragraphs framing an OP, so I've said enough. There was no simple introduction of this subject.

Now let's begin. What do you think suffering is good for? Do you think suffering is desirable or repellent? Do you see something beautiful and transcendent in suffering? Do you think suffering should be ended?

This should be a good discussion.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

My belief, and this is why I identify as a utilitarian consequentialist, is that the value isn't in suffering, it's maximizing success or solace or happiness, whichever antonym you prefer, within a community and as an individual.
Some suffering is inevitable because conflict is an inevitable part of group dynamic, and there being rational limits in things like resources or health. Nobody can have it all in a stable system and I find beliefs in world peace, or heaven to be equally fantastic but ultimately unrealistic.

But that there is some suffering doesn't mean a suffering is equal or that some suffering can't be avoided. I highly dislike the Mother Theresa 'glory in suffering' type philosophies because it puts more value on individual suffering than group success (in her case because she believed success was unholy. Only the meek, etc.). And part of that is the 'narrow path' 'if it doesn't hurt it's not working' view I find pretty self-defeating. (I also find pure hedonism self-defeating but that's s bit in the weeds.)

To make it short I think some suffering is inevitable, and may even be a sign of a healthy system in some respects. But the goal isn't 'the right amount of suffering' it's 'the right amount of success,' and dealing with suffering as a consequence of that balance, not suffering for the sake of suffering. And there absolutely can be too much suffering, needless or unjusifiable mounts of suffering.

 

[YmirGF]

I think that if taken either metaphorically, or very lightly, suffering can teach the individual a great deal -- providing they learn from said suffering. That said, suffering, in an of itself, will not necessarily promote inner growth and could be decidedly harmful to the individual, to those in their immediate circle of influence and perhaps the community within which they find themselves also suffers due to their suffering.

The overall point is that one should not be content with suffering and should, in a perfect world, view suffering as a wake up call to change the behavior(s) that are precipitating the suffering. The thing is that the individual is not powerless and can affect change in their experience if that experience is found wanting.

As hinted at by @ADigitalArtist suffering is part of the balance of life and while we are physical we will never be free from suffering, but one must never lose sight of the fact that they should not linger on or glorify a state that brings them unhappiness. It's all too close to telling the masses, who have nothing, to feel good about having nothing. Everyone deserves better than that ideology.

 

[wizanda]

Everyone deserves better than that ideology.

Well done you gave much of what i was going to answer.... Suffering is for us to learn to go the other way, it is a sign that something isn't right.

Position C: Suffering is beautiful.

Including Christians in this mix, they're told to enjoy suffering like Pharisees believed... So they're sort of masochistic. Romans 5:3-4, 1 Peter 4:1, Philippians 1:29, 1 Peter 2:21, etc.

It gets worse as they're also told to be hated by the world, and so they think when they're suffering, hated, and tortured, they're on the right track.

Position A: Suffering is not ideal and should be ended

Position B: Suffering is not ideal, but it helps us grow, know what bad is, and develops character- so it shouldn't necessarily end

Suffering is often due to ignorance:

• Ignorance of Oneness between us all, to care for each other, and live as one family.
• Ignorance of what caused the physical illness to begin, which can often be diet, life style related, and is a warning we need to change.
• Not realizing here is the Maya, and all illusion; thus not to take it all so seriously.
• Trying to hold onto something, we can not hold on to.
• Our blueprint for life, not matching what we find.
• Etc...

Within a few of those levels of ignorance, we can remove the suffering aspects by not being attached to our thoughts, and emotions, as that is what causes the suffering by trying to hold on.

In my opinion.

 

[Srivijaya]

It's certainly one of the most misunderstood aspects of Buddha's four noble truths. The problem is. what everyone understands as 'suffering' wasn't the same thing that Buddha was teaching in his core doctrine. Not that 'conventional' suffering is denied or dismissed in any way.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

This thread seems necessary after seeing the varying opinions of RF users on the reality of suffering. It seems that suffering needs a thread to further discuss it, examine ideas of it, and see if there's any consensus to arise at about it.

I will present three views about suffering that exist in the mainstream as a starting point, and feel free to introduce others I may skip over. This is merely for the convenience of getting us started.

Position A: Suffering is not ideal and should be ended

Position B: Suffering is not ideal, but it helps us grow, know what bad is, and develops character- so it shouldn't necessarily end

Position C: Suffering is beautiful. If we embrace suffering we'll be sharing in the burden of God/Christ for all creation. Suffering presents us with a chance to be God/Christ, and suffer with him.

Buddhism seems to take A&B together. Suffering is absolutely bad from a Buddhist perspective, but at the same time- it has been reflected on by various masters as a way of seeing the futility of clinging to love of the world and possessions.

Suffering has a use in Buddhism- if and only if it brings one to practice, so that it can be ultimately overcome. That things suffer is not somehow virtuous or ideal from a Buddhist perspective.

I've encountered those that tend to be of Position B only. That suffering might be not ideal, but there are reasons it should continue.

This position is often set up in opposition to the Buddhist perspective. We are asked to consider that suffering makes us grow, or it causes us to overcome hurdles.

I think those that often hold to Position B do not realize they are arguing for Position A. Some of them may not even realize they stand with Position A concerning suffering.

Allow me to expound. I will attempt to show that Position B as often argued, is an extension of Position A. Most people arguing for Position B do not actually think suffering is ideal or good. Actually, if they did think so- I'd ask why suffering is a catalyst for overcoming in their perspective.

This argues that suffering is not good, and it's only usefulness is in pushing humans to overcome it. Position B typically is not that suffering is good, or should remain. Position B is more an active application of Position A.

That's why I think the two are probably more interrelated than often realized. Position A will usually lead one to Position B- because Position A is the motivator.

I don't think those arguing that suffering has a use are necessarily making a good case for it's being good or desirable. Yet often, when coming up against Buddhists- suffering is frequently appealed to that way.

Suffering is said to be useful and even admirable from a certain outlook, so Buddhism's desire to end it is short-sighted.

As stated, I don't think those that hold Position B while rejecting A are thinking through their premises very well. They are not in fact saying that being in suffering is good.

There are those that do hold such a position. Many of those can be relegated to what I defined above as Position C. This view is typically held by Christians of a certain sort. Mother Theresa is a good example of this kind of approach to suffering.

In a certain way, she stated many times during her life that suffering is beautiful. That she feels like suffering is the passion ever present. That she sees Christ when she looks at suffering.

I don't want to take up fifty paragraphs framing an OP, so I've said enough. There was no simple introduction of this subject.

Now let's begin. What do you think suffering is good for? Do you think suffering is desirable or repellent? Do you see something beautiful and transcendent in suffering? Do you think suffering should be ended?

This should be a good discussion.

I have yet to have anyone coherently explain to me why suffering is bad. Because of this neither a or b seem relevant. As for c, this is just the opposite of a and b stating that suffering is good. I cant reconcile that either.

 

[Sunstone]

Suffering almost always turns a person inward and makes them much more self-centered, closed off, and insensitive to others and to the world. It has fewer real lessons to teach than most people claim it has, and the few that it does have to teach are for the most part negative and far shallower than the lessons taught by love. For every one person who becomes kinder and more compassionate as the result of great suffering, there are two other people who become more bitter, cynical, insensitive, and destructive. At least, that's my take on it.

 

[bobhikes]

Position A: Suffering is not ideal and should be ended

Position B: Suffering is not ideal, but it helps us grow, know what bad is, and develops character- so it shouldn't necessarily end

Position C: Suffering is beautiful. If we embrace suffering we'll be sharing in the burden of God/Christ for all creation. Suffering presents us with a chance to be God/Christ, and suffer with him.

Position D: Suffering is self imposed and neither good or bad.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I'm in the A+B camp. It should be ended, or at least alleviated. I would say suffering is inevitable, but I suffer from chronic depression and anxiety, so take my beliefs with a grain of salt.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

This thread seems necessary after seeing the varying opinions of RF users on the reality of suffering. It seems that suffering needs a thread to further discuss it, examine ideas of it, and see if there's any consensus to arise at about it.

I will present three views about suffering that exist in the mainstream as a starting point, and feel free to introduce others I may skip over. This is merely for the convenience of getting us started.

Position A: Suffering is not ideal and should be ended

Position B: Suffering is not ideal, but it helps us grow, know what bad is, and develops character- so it shouldn't necessarily end

Position C: Suffering is beautiful. If we embrace suffering we'll be sharing in the burden of God/Christ for all creation. Suffering presents us with a chance to be God/Christ, and suffer with him.

Buddhism seems to take A&B together. Suffering is absolutely bad from a Buddhist perspective, but at the same time- it has been reflected on by various masters as a way of seeing the futility of clinging to love of the world and possessions.

Suffering has a use in Buddhism- if and only if it brings one to practice, so that it can be ultimately overcome. That things suffer is not somehow virtuous or ideal from a Buddhist perspective.

I've encountered those that tend to be of Position B only. That suffering might be not ideal, but there are reasons it should continue.

This position is often set up in opposition to the Buddhist perspective. We are asked to consider that suffering makes us grow, or it causes us to overcome hurdles.

I think those that often hold to Position B do not realize they are arguing for Position A. Some of them may not even realize they stand with Position A concerning suffering.

Allow me to expound. I will attempt to show that Position B as often argued, is an extension of Position A. Most people arguing for Position B do not actually think suffering is ideal or good. Actually, if they did think so- I'd ask why suffering is a catalyst for overcoming in their perspective.

This argues that suffering is not good, and it's only usefulness is in pushing humans to overcome it. Position B typically is not that suffering is good, or should remain. Position B is more an active application of Position A.

That's why I think the two are probably more interrelated than often realized. Position A will usually lead one to Position B- because Position A is the motivator.

I don't think those arguing that suffering has a use are necessarily making a good case for it's being good or desirable. Yet often, when coming up against Buddhists- suffering is frequently appealed to that way.

Suffering is said to be useful and even admirable from a certain outlook, so Buddhism's desire to end it is short-sighted.

As stated, I don't think those that hold Position B while rejecting A are thinking through their premises very well. They are not in fact saying that being in suffering is good.

There are those that do hold such a position. Many of those can be relegated to what I defined above as Position C. This view is typically held by Christians of a certain sort. Mother Theresa is a good example of this kind of approach to suffering.

In a certain way, she stated many times during her life that suffering is beautiful. That she feels like suffering is the passion ever present. That she sees Christ when she looks at suffering.

I don't want to take up fifty paragraphs framing an OP, so I've said enough. There was no simple introduction of this subject.

Now let's begin. What do you think suffering is good for? Do you think suffering is desirable or repellent? Do you see something beautiful and transcendent in suffering? Do you think suffering should be ended?

This should be a good discussion.

Im on the idea that suffering (natural consequences of karma) is inherit as long as their is living beings etc on earth. While we may say suffering is seperate from us that needs to be eradicated, The Buddha said more understanding suffering so our meritous deeds will create a better future rebirth. Rebirth isnt the ideal and suffering is to stay in this cycle until we know the four Truths and live by them.

On that note, position A is true. Suffering how we experience (attachments of the mind) it not suffering in and of itself (survival, thoughts, and behaviors).

Position B is diferent entirely. Suffering is needed not desired. Take out suffering there are no laws and relationships between cause and effect. But we dont learn from suffering. That means without it we wouldnt grow. The point is the end suffering not use it to jump start our growth. Like putting a childs hand over a hit fire so he knows not to touch the stove. Position A would explain it and maybe use analagies and examples through dialogue to understsnd why suffering is dangerous without "needed" pain. Then proceed to tell him about the opposite so that the child would recognize suffering is a part of life but with healhy upbringing you dont need pain in order to live.

Which brings me to position C. To generalize it outside of christianity its more I suffer-you suffer-we all suffer. Its expressing empathy to connect with hurt in order to relieve it.

Somewhat like Buddhism where we live life in karma; without it, no life. The Buddha taught and had exteme empathy. But he wasnt a sacrifice to experience empathy; thats the difference. We all suffer universally and order to help others we need to understand suffering ourselves by deed (Buddhism) likewise we suffer universally but instead of deeds and examples instead by ouching the stove fire, can embrace the heat to know healing (just as jesus).

Also, christians take up position B. They dont see suffering as beautiful (hence the need for christ). If anything, suffering is the backbone motivation to avoid it. What makes christian as it is, is sacrifice. They see suffering as bad just they feel someone else needs to relieve it. Buddhist to our knowledge and awakening and christians to their sacrifices and death. Both are "born again" but as a motivation from A to do so not B. C is not all accurate.

 

[sayak83]

This thread seems necessary after seeing the varying opinions of RF users on the reality of suffering. It seems that suffering needs a thread to further discuss it, examine ideas of it, and see if there's any consensus to arise at about it.

I will present three views about suffering that exist in the mainstream as a starting point, and feel free to introduce others I may skip over. This is merely for the convenience of getting us started.

Position A: Suffering is not ideal and should be ended

Position B: Suffering is not ideal, but it helps us grow, know what bad is, and develops character- so it shouldn't necessarily end

Position C: Suffering is beautiful. If we embrace suffering we'll be sharing in the burden of God/Christ for all creation. Suffering presents us with a chance to be God/Christ, and suffer with him.

Buddhism seems to take A&B together. Suffering is absolutely bad from a Buddhist perspective, but at the same time- it has been reflected on by various masters as a way of seeing the futility of clinging to love of the world and possessions.

Suffering has a use in Buddhism- if and only if it brings one to practice, so that it can be ultimately overcome. That things suffer is not somehow virtuous or ideal from a Buddhist perspective.

I've encountered those that tend to be of Position B only. That suffering might be not ideal, but there are reasons it should continue.

This position is often set up in opposition to the Buddhist perspective. We are asked to consider that suffering makes us grow, or it causes us to overcome hurdles.

I think those that often hold to Position B do not realize they are arguing for Position A. Some of them may not even realize they stand with Position A concerning suffering.

Allow me to expound. I will attempt to show that Position B as often argued, is an extension of Position A. Most people arguing for Position B do not actually think suffering is ideal or good. Actually, if they did think so- I'd ask why suffering is a catalyst for overcoming in their perspective.

This argues that suffering is not good, and it's only usefulness is in pushing humans to overcome it. Position B typically is not that suffering is good, or should remain. Position B is more an active application of Position A.

That's why I think the two are probably more interrelated than often realized. Position A will usually lead one to Position B- because Position A is the motivator.

I don't think those arguing that suffering has a use are necessarily making a good case for it's being good or desirable. Yet often, when coming up against Buddhists- suffering is frequently appealed to that way.

Suffering is said to be useful and even admirable from a certain outlook, so Buddhism's desire to end it is short-sighted.

As stated, I don't think those that hold Position B while rejecting A are thinking through their premises very well. They are not in fact saying that being in suffering is good.

There are those that do hold such a position. Many of those can be relegated to what I defined above as Position C. This view is typically held by Christians of a certain sort. Mother Theresa is a good example of this kind of approach to suffering.

In a certain way, she stated many times during her life that suffering is beautiful. That she feels like suffering is the passion ever present. That she sees Christ when she looks at suffering.

I don't want to take up fifty paragraphs framing an OP, so I've said enough. There was no simple introduction of this subject.

Now let's begin. What do you think suffering is good for? Do you think suffering is desirable or repellent? Do you see something beautiful and transcendent in suffering? Do you think suffering should be ended?

This should be a good discussion.

I am fully in position A.

 

[Truthseeker]

Suffering is good, but if God sent more than we could handle our way that would be bad. But as a Baha'i I am promised that too much suffering will not be sent my way. Suffering that arises from attachment is to be avoided, we are to be detached. Also, it is different for a believer than an unbeliever. A believer will use suffering to develop himself, to become more compassionate, to turn to God, and get closer to God. If people did not suffer, they would just enjoy the world, and be attached to the world, and get further from God. For a nonbeliever suffering is just a calamity and can lead to bitterness. In the Baha'i Faith, there are prayers to have God send us more tests, so we can perfect ourselves. We are to be content with God's will for us. To illustrate the points I have made, I have some quotes.

49. O SON OF MAN!
The true lover yearneth for tribulation even as doth the rebel for forgiveness and the sinful for mercy.

50. O SON OF MAN!
If adversity befall thee not in My path, how canst thou walk in the ways of them that are content with My pleasure? If trials afflict thee not in thy longing to meet Me, how wilt thou attain the light in thy love for My beauty?

51. O SON OF MAN!
My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy. Hasten thereunto that thou mayest become an eternal light and an immortal spirit. This is My command unto thee, do thou observe it.
(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

Thou didst write of afflictive tests that have assailed thee. To the loyal soul, a test is but God's grace and favour; for the valiant doth joyously press forward to furious battle on the field of anguish, when the coward, whimpering with fright, will tremble and shake. So too, the proficient student, who hath with great competence mastered his subjects and committed them to memory, will happily exhibit his skills before his examiners on the day of his tests. So too will solid gold wondrously gleam and shine out in the assayer's fire.

It is clear, then, that tests and trials are, for sanctified souls, but God's bounty and grace, while to the weak, they are a calamity, unexpected and sudden.

These tests, even as thou didst write, do but cleanse the spotting of self from off the mirror of the heart, till the Sun of Truth can cast its rays thereon; for there is no veil more obstructive than the self, and however tenuous that veil may be, at the last it will completely shut a person out, and deprive him of his portion of eternal grace.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 181)

God alone ordereth all things and is all-powerful. Why then does He send trials to His servants?

14.2
The trials of man are of two kinds. (a) The consequences of his own actions. If a man eats too much, he ruins his digestion; if he takes poison he becomes ill or dies. If a person gambles he will lose his money; if he drinks too much he will lose his equilibrium. All these sufferings are caused by the man himself, it is quite clear therefore that certain sorrows are the result of our own deeds.

14.3
(b) Other sufferings there are, which come upon the Faithful of God. Consider the great sorrows endured by Christ and by His apostles!

14.4
Those who suffer most, attain to the greatest perfection.

14.5
Those who declare a wish to suffer much for Christ's sake must prove their sincerity; those who proclaim their longing to make great sacrifices can only prove their truth by their deeds. Job proved the fidelity of his love for God by being faithful through his great adversity, as well as during the prosperity of his life. The apostles of Christ who steadfastly bore all their trials and sufferings -- did they not prove their faithfulness? Was not their endurance the best proof?

14.6
These griefs are now ended.

14.7
Caiaphas lived a comfortable and happy life while Peter's life was full of sorrow and trial; which of these two is the more enviable? Assuredly we should choose the present state of Peter, for he possesses immortal life whilst Caiaphas has won eternal shame. The trials of Peter tested his fidelity. Tests are benefits from God, for which we should thank Him. Grief and sorrow do not come to us by chance, they are sent to us by the Divine Mercy for our own perfecting.

14.8
While a man is happy he may forget his God; but when grief comes and sorrows overwhelm him, then will he remember his Father who is in Heaven, and who is able to deliver him from his humiliations.

14.9
Men who suffer not, attain no perfection. The plant most pruned by the gardeners is that one which, when the summer comes, will have the most beautiful blossoms and the most abundant fruit.

14.10
The labourer cuts up the earth with his plough, and from that earth comes the rich and plentiful harvest. The more a man is chastened, the greater is the harvest of spiritual virtues shown forth by him. A soldier is no good General until he has been in the front of the fiercest battle and has received the deepest wounds.

14.11
The prayer of the prophets of God has always been, and still is: Oh God, I long to lay down my life in the path to Thee! I desire to shed my blood for Thee, and to make the supreme sacrifice.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 49)



I myself have never prayed for more tests, because I am too selfish.

 

[crossfire]

Dukkha leads to addiction, as can be demonstrated by the scientific studies referred to as "Rat Park."
Knowing it for what it is and understanding it can lead to the ending of it, and less propensity towards addiction.

The Likely Cause of Addiction Has Been Discovered, and It Is Not What You Think | HuffPost

 

[YmirGF]

Suffering almost always turns a person inward and makes them much more self-centered, closed off, and insensitive to others and to the world. It has fewer real lessons to teach than most people claim it has, and the few that it does have to teach are for the most part negative and far shallower than the lessons taught by love. For every one person who becomes kinder and more compassionate as the result of great suffering, there are two other people who become more bitter, cynical, insensitive, and destructive. At least, that's my take on it.

That is totally in line with my thinking too, @Sunstone

When I saw the topic, my brain translated the word 'suffering' for the word 'fail' because we DO, for the most part, learn a great deal from our failures. Over the years one of my main messages is that failure is good because it help you with... how to say... course correction. You realize, "Well, that didn't work so well. Let's try this!" and so on. Of course, I learned from the things I got right off the bat, but I learned far more from when I got things wrong. Is that about right for you?

 

[YmirGF]

Dukkha leads to addiction, as can be demonstrated by the scientific studies referred to as "Rat Park."
Knowing it for what it is and understanding it can lead to the ending of it, and less propensity towards addiction.

The Likely Cause of Addiction Has Been Discovered, and It Is Not What You Think | HuffPost

I knew I recognized his name. He was a Professor at SFU in Vancouver, my home town. Nice.

Poor lone mousies that got tested... *sniffle*

What made me laugh was that I was reading the article and was thinking, "Yeah, I know..." until I got to his name and realized I knew because I've heard interviews with him several times over the years.

 

[socharlie]

This thread seems necessary after seeing the varying opinions of RF users on the reality of suffering. It seems that suffering needs a thread to further discuss it, examine ideas of it, and see if there's any consensus to arise at about it.

I will present three views about suffering that exist in the mainstream as a starting point, and feel free to introduce others I may skip over. This is merely for the convenience of getting us started.

Position A: Suffering is not ideal and should be ended

Position B: Suffering is not ideal, but it helps us grow, know what bad is, and develops character- so it shouldn't necessarily end

Position C: Suffering is beautiful. If we embrace suffering we'll be sharing in the burden of God/Christ for all creation. Suffering presents us with a chance to be God/Christ, and suffer with him.

Buddhism seems to take A&B together. Suffering is absolutely bad from a Buddhist perspective, but at the same time- it has been reflected on by various masters as a way of seeing the futility of clinging to love of the world and possessions.

Suffering has a use in Buddhism- if and only if it brings one to practice, so that it can be ultimately overcome. That things suffer is not somehow virtuous or ideal from a Buddhist perspective.

I've encountered those that tend to be of Position B only. That suffering might be not ideal, but there are reasons it should continue.

This position is often set up in opposition to the Buddhist perspective. We are asked to consider that suffering makes us grow, or it causes us to overcome hurdles.

I think those that often hold to Position B do not realize they are arguing for Position A. Some of them may not even realize they stand with Position A concerning suffering.

Allow me to expound. I will attempt to show that Position B as often argued, is an extension of Position A. Most people arguing for Position B do not actually think suffering is ideal or good. Actually, if they did think so- I'd ask why suffering is a catalyst for overcoming in their perspective.

This argues that suffering is not good, and it's only usefulness is in pushing humans to overcome it. Position B typically is not that suffering is good, or should remain. Position B is more an active application of Position A.

That's why I think the two are probably more interrelated than often realized. Position A will usually lead one to Position B- because Position A is the motivator.

I don't think those arguing that suffering has a use are necessarily making a good case for it's being good or desirable. Yet often, when coming up against Buddhists- suffering is frequently appealed to that way.

Suffering is said to be useful and even admirable from a certain outlook, so Buddhism's desire to end it is short-sighted.

As stated, I don't think those that hold Position B while rejecting A are thinking through their premises very well. They are not in fact saying that being in suffering is good.

There are those that do hold such a position. Many of those can be relegated to what I defined above as Position C. This view is typically held by Christians of a certain sort. Mother Theresa is a good example of this kind of approach to suffering.

In a certain way, she stated many times during her life that suffering is beautiful. That she feels like suffering is the passion ever present. That she sees Christ when she looks at suffering.

I don't want to take up fifty paragraphs framing an OP, so I've said enough. There was no simple introduction of this subject.

Now let's begin. What do you think suffering is good for? Do you think suffering is desirable or repellent? Do you see something beautiful and transcendent in suffering? Do you think suffering should be ended?

This should be a good discussion.

I think, it has to go from B to A path. Suffering is part of being of material world. But if people go by the path of enlightenment B will turn to A (I do not cover natural events but they are a part of natural Law too, human consciousness working together can eliminate suffering due to natural events).

 

[ajay0]

I go by these four teachings as a simple framework to understand the nature of suffering...


“Awareness is who we are and forgetting that leads to suffering.” - Vicki Woodyard

Your true nature is awareness and not what your mind is producing. – Burt Harding

Purpose of suffering is to connect you to your Self (Awareness). It indicates that you got carried away by all the transient things around you. - Sri Sri Ravi Shankar

Be aware that what you think, to a large extent, creates the emotions that you feel. See the link between your thinking and your emotions. Rather than being your thoughts and emotions, be the awareness behind them. – Eckhart Tolle



The Self or Awareness is obscured by inner emotions or thoughts from within, or those thoughts/emotions produced by contact with external sensory objects. This blind identification or involvement with the transient content of thoughts and emotions produced in the mind as psychological reality, creates suffering as we are not able to create perpetuity in external circumstances that produce pleasant emotions and avoid unpleasant ones or gain security or identity from it due to its impermanent nature. The difference between existential reality or 'what is' and psychological reality or 'what should be' determines the degree of suffering.

 

[allfoak]

Now let's begin. What do you think suffering is good for? Do you think suffering is desirable or repellent? Do you see something beautiful and transcendent in suffering? Do you think suffering should be ended?

Isn't suffering just a perspective, perhaps even a state of mind?

 

[crossfire]

Isn't suffering just a perspective, perhaps even a state of mind?

You've never been through childbirth, have you?

 

[Twilight Hue]

This thread seems necessary after seeing the varying opinions of RF users on the reality of suffering. It seems that suffering needs a thread to further discuss it, examine ideas of it, and see if there's any consensus to arise at about it.

I will present three views about suffering that exist in the mainstream as a starting point, and feel free to introduce others I may skip over. This is merely for the convenience of getting us started.

Position A: Suffering is not ideal and should be ended

Position B: Suffering is not ideal, but it helps us grow, know what bad is, and develops character- so it shouldn't necessarily end

Position C: Suffering is beautiful. If we embrace suffering we'll be sharing in the burden of God/Christ for all creation. Suffering presents us with a chance to be God/Christ, and suffer with him.

Buddhism seems to take A&B together. Suffering is absolutely bad from a Buddhist perspective, but at the same time- it has been reflected on by various masters as a way of seeing the futility of clinging to love of the world and possessions.

Suffering has a use in Buddhism- if and only if it brings one to practice, so that it can be ultimately overcome. That things suffer is not somehow virtuous or ideal from a Buddhist perspective.

I've encountered those that tend to be of Position B only. That suffering might be not ideal, but there are reasons it should continue.

This position is often set up in opposition to the Buddhist perspective. We are asked to consider that suffering makes us grow, or it causes us to overcome hurdles.

I think those that often hold to Position B do not realize they are arguing for Position A. Some of them may not even realize they stand with Position A concerning suffering.

Allow me to expound. I will attempt to show that Position B as often argued, is an extension of Position A. Most people arguing for Position B do not actually think suffering is ideal or good. Actually, if they did think so- I'd ask why suffering is a catalyst for overcoming in their perspective.

This argues that suffering is not good, and it's only usefulness is in pushing humans to overcome it. Position B typically is not that suffering is good, or should remain. Position B is more an active application of Position A.

That's why I think the two are probably more interrelated than often realized. Position A will usually lead one to Position B- because Position A is the motivator.

I don't think those arguing that suffering has a use are necessarily making a good case for it's being good or desirable. Yet often, when coming up against Buddhists- suffering is frequently appealed to that way.

Suffering is said to be useful and even admirable from a certain outlook, so Buddhism's desire to end it is short-sighted.

As stated, I don't think those that hold Position B while rejecting A are thinking through their premises very well. They are not in fact saying that being in suffering is good.

There are those that do hold such a position. Many of those can be relegated to what I defined above as Position C. This view is typically held by Christians of a certain sort. Mother Theresa is a good example of this kind of approach to suffering.

In a certain way, she stated many times during her life that suffering is beautiful. That she feels like suffering is the passion ever present. That she sees Christ when she looks at suffering.

I don't want to take up fifty paragraphs framing an OP, so I've said enough. There was no simple introduction of this subject.

Now let's begin. What do you think suffering is good for? Do you think suffering is desirable or repellent? Do you see something beautiful and transcendent in suffering? Do you think suffering should be ended?

This should be a good discussion.

In Buddhism suffering is a reality as reflected with the first Noble Truth right off the bat.

It's delusional to think suffering ends by a way or means of permanency and leading people to think that's the case through things like meditations chanting or whatever. That *red hot ball of iron" stuck in the throat that can never be dislodged or removed.

Suffering is empty as with all tactile sensations and phenomena continually rising, duration of suffering, and falling/dissipating away.

Zazen, the Heart Sutra, all reflect the same phenomena of which all beings experience for which suffering intertwines for which people can either cling to by which suffering extends past such episodes creating unnecessary apprehension or loathing or develop an ability to directly approach suffering head-on and see it for what it really is anytime there is an occurrence with an understanding brought about through insight, by which a person can effectively let go of suffering, hence ending it, and not be affected as much whenever it occurs in the future.