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Suffering and evil

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Help me understand. I don't want this to be a stumbling block to religion.

It wasn't, until classical monotheism came along and proclaimed there was only one god, and that god was good, looks out for humanity, and is benevolent.

Traditionally, gods and spirits were understood to be autonomous agents with their own agendas. Those agendas intersect with humanity in different ways, ranging from benevolent to benign to malevolent. In many cases, various gods were understood to embody all of these at once. And it was also understood that humans weren't the center of the universe, so the gods are just not expected to pay special regard to humans for good or for ill. Much of Pagan ritual can be about attracting or diverting attention of various gods and spirits towards or away from oneself based on how they tend to interact with us as a species. Some of these "superstitions" still persist today and even exist in some form in classical monotheist religions. Those traditions have their own ways of interpreting these matters that make sense from their own vantage point.

In any case, what is useful to do is examine those assumptions held. What you assume about the gods, what you assume about fate and fortune, what you assume about the place of humanity in the universe, etc. Different sets of assumptions will paint the canvas in different tones, so you get to be the artist here. No need to necessarily do all the work from scratch; plenty have picked out some pigments and subjects to paint already. Religion done mindfully is hard - you have to do some work, some thinking. It's not a bad thing that this feels like a "stumbling block." Working through life's challenges and finding meaning in it is a major point of religion.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
Still gives me manipulative vibes. Like I've been through some horrible stuff. Have me go through it just to reward me? Why? What's the point...

Edit: I can't figure out how to word it but it reminds me of something an abuser would do. Im trying hard to figure out how to word what it reminds me of.

“If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face—for ever.”

― George Orwell, 1984
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Still gives me manipulative vibes. Like I've been through some horrible stuff. Have me go through it just to reward me? Why? What's the point.......................

Hope you won't have to deal with any more horrible stuff.
H.O.P.E.-> Hold On Pain Ends

As to why? It is so that we all have the opportunity to be born otherwise we simply would not be here.
What's the point ? To settle the issues raised in Eden.
By Adam breaking God's Law was as if Adam taking the Law out of God's hands and putting the Law in man's hands.
In a way, Adam set up People Rule and being superior to God Rule.
Mankind's long history now shows that it is: man who has dominated man to man's hurt, man's injury.
Who can govern best _______ only with the passing of time that would allow for us to be born and think who we would like as Sovereign over us.

In the Bible book of Job the man Job went through some horrible stuff too.
Satan challenged that under adverse conditions that Job would Not be faithful to God, Not serve God.
'Touch our flesh..... ' (loose physical health) and we also would not serve God - Job 2:4-5
So, by way of extension we are all challenged by abusive Satan.
Both Job and Jesus under adverse conditions proved Satan a liar and so can we.
The reward is the Resurrection Promise, or if alive at Jesus' coming Glory Time of separation Earth (Matthew 25:31-34,37) that the figurative 'sheep' can remain alive on Earth, and be here to see Calendar Day one of Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental reign over Earth with everlasting life on Earth in view.
An Earth free of horrible stuff, sickness and death on Earth - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
@George-ananda wrote a lot of what I was going to write. I'll add that as the song says "life is but a dream". When we "wake up", we realize that all the suffering and pleasure was only a dream.

Apparent suffering is thus a "nightmare" that inspires us to wake up.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
“If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face—for ever.”― George Orwell, 1984

In 1964 a teacher drew 3 diagonal line on the black board with the lines ending around the year 2,000.
His lines were a picture of the future for Baby Boomers.
* One line was that we could not depend on social security.
* One line was that economists see No end to inflation in sight; never-ending inflation.
* One line was medical. Too many Baby Boomers and Not enough medical personal to go around.
Plus, there will be no end to Alzheimers in sight.
Another teacher said the generation that aborts its children will euthanize its parents.
Also, science class and the so-called 'church' was teaching Earth will be destroyed.
So, the world was painting a black bleak picture of the future.
To me, thankfully the Bible teaches 'Earth abides forever' ( Ecclesiastes 1:4 B; Psalms 104:5 ) and that Jesus will come and bring ' healing ' to earth's nations for us - Revelation 22:2
Healing as described in Isaiah 35th chapter, and at 1 Corinthians 15:24-26
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Suffering is just a part of existing. Evil, however, is a choice.

We often suffer because we or someone else made an evil (i.e., selfish) choice. And we and/or others ended up suffering as a result. The lesson from this is obvious: that we are all in this existence thing, together. So that our selfishness becomes evil, and that evil causes suffering. If not to us, then to others. So if we want to avoid suffering, we need to do it collectively. We need to avoid the evil that causes it. And to do that, we need to stop being selfish.

This will not alleviate ALL suffering, but it would alleviate a great deal of it. And the positive cooperation that would result would help us to alleviate most of the rest.

So, why are we so frightened and stupid that we just can't seem to learn this lesson?

I do not know. But I know it is the cause of most of our suffering.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
@George-ananda wrote a lot of what I was going to write. I'll add that as the song says "life is but a dream". When we "wake up", we realize that all the suffering and pleasure was only a dream. Apparent suffering is thus a "nightmare" that inspires us to wake up.

To me, it is hopefully to 'wake up spiritually' because this is where HOPE is found.
Hope as found in the Bible that Jesus will bring his 'millennial dawn' to Earth for us.
The dawn of a new day, a thousand-year day when Jesus brings ' healing ' to earth's nations - Revelation 22:2
A happy-and-healthy Earth as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.
When even 'enemy death' will be No more on Earth - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Suffering is just a part of existing. Evil, however, is a choice.
We often suffer because we or someone else made an evil (i.e., selfish) choice. And we and/or others ended up suffering as a result. The lesson from this is obvious: that we are all in this existence thing, together. So that our selfishness becomes evil, and that evil causes suffering. If not to us, then to others. So if we want to avoid suffering, we need to do it collectively. We need to avoid the evil that causes it. And to do that, we need to stop being selfish.
This will not alleviate ALL suffering, but it would alleviate a great deal of it. And the positive cooperation that would result would help us to alleviate most of the rest................
Sound like we all need to live (life style) by the Golden Rule, and even more than the Golden Rule to live by Jesus' New Commandment to have self-sacrificing love for others, in other words, to love others more than self.
- John 13:34-35
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
But isn't that entirely a function of what you deem suitable? Why should 'evil' undermine spirituality rather than render is more important?

Furthermore, if your theism presumes preternatural agency, then the one certainty is that the 'god' you understand isn't.
Does my desperation show?
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
That is horrifying to me. The idea that an all powerful god would cause pain or allow it just to test folk. It gives me manipulative vibes


I dont believe my gods to be all powerful or all gods to be good. I also dont think most gods bother themselves with humans.

What leads you to your gods? They would not be creator gods then?
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Sound like we all need to live (life style) by the Golden Rule, and even more than the Golden Rule to live by Jesus' New Commandment to have self-sacrificing love for others, in other words, to love others more than self.
- John 13:34-35
Christianity is one iteration of this revelation. There are others happening all around us. Unfortunately, they have not managed to convince us. And we continue to choose selfishness, and evil. And we continue to suffer as a result.

We're a clever species. Why don't we learn?
 

VoidCat

Pronouns: he/him/they/them
What leads you to your gods? They would not be creator gods then?
Who says a creator god has to be all powerful? Or that one god created it all as supposed to many? What if they created the earth by accident or out of spite? Or for a bet? I dont know how the earth came to be its not important in my belief system. I do believe in the big bang tho.

As for what leads me to them it's a long story for the ones i worship.
 
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Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
I come from a Vedic (Hindu) religious perspective.

Problem of Evil proponents look at good/bad events as happening randomly to people. Eastern thinkers believe a long series of causes/events (karma) causes things to be the way they are.

I look at life from the perspective that life is eternal and we are in the process of learning that. We live as individuals for eons and not one life. We all return to godhead in the end. If one could see one's life from separation from godhead through the eons to return to godhead then things and temporary sufferings make more sense. What we see as evil are very short temporary events in the grand scheme of things where each individual story ends in success; return to peace/bliss/awareness of godhead.
That actually makes more sense to me.
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
Suffering is just a part of existing. Evil, however, is a choice.

We often suffer because we or someone else made an evil (i.e., selfish) choice. And we and/or others ended up suffering as a result. The lesson from this is obvious: that we are all in this existence thing, together. So that our selfishness becomes evil, and that evil causes suffering. If not to us, then to others. So if we want to avoid suffering, we need to do it collectively. We need to avoid the evil that causes it. And to do that, we need to stop being selfish.

This will not alleviate ALL suffering, but it would alleviate a great deal of it. And the positive cooperation that would result would help us to alleviate most of the rest.

So, why are we so frightened and stupid that we just can't seem to learn this lesson?

I do not know. But I know it is the cause of most of our suffering.
I don't know either. We are shooting ourselves in the foot by not uniting as a human race to help each other.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Christianity is one iteration of this revelation. There are others happening all around us. Unfortunately, they have not managed to convince us. And we continue to choose selfishness, and evil. And we continue to suffer as a result. We're a clever species. Why don't we learn?

Just the same as clever Satan and Adam chose selfishness and evil.
Jesus said his 'sheep' would hear his voice ( they would learn/ able to be taught ).
So, as in Jesus' day the majority would Not obey/ listen to the Golden Rule of Leviticus 19:18 is also true today.
So, they will also Not listen to Jesus' New commandment of John 13:34-35 to have self-sacrificing love for others.
We need to remember Jesus forewarned us his followers would be hated - Matthew 24:9; Luke 21:17; John 15:21
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
How does your religion explain why suffering and evil happen?

This is really only a problem for monotheists with a tri-omni deity. The Dharmics and pagans don't seem to have any more of an issue there than atheistic humanists for whom suffering is natural and to be expected.

The others have to explain why suffering and evil are allowed to occur when it can be prevented. They have the unenviable task of explaining why these are actually good for us. So, you get answers such as we couldn't know pleasure if we didn't know suffering as if that were a good reason to induce or allow suffering. Maybe we should set people on fire so that they can know what it's like to not be on fire. Maybe we should leave the kids out in the cold at night so they know what it feels like to sleep in a warm bed. They'll appreciate it more. Same argument.

Or, it's man's fault and was deserved for disobeying, and allowing that to happen was somehow a good thing. We are told that the choice to give man free will is praiseworthy and a good thing when clearly it is not if the penalty for exercising it was devastating, leading to the fall of man after about five minutes in the garden. The apologist must explain that that was somehow consistent with a loving god who we are told could have made it otherwise, and you've seen how that goes.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
........................ We are shooting ourselves in the foot by not uniting as a human race to help each other.

More than even shooting one's self in the foot but risking one's life itself.
Jesus is to come, and Jesus is Prince of Peace towards person's of goodwill.
The rest Jesus will simply get rid of at the soon coming time as found described at Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-15
In other words, we are forewarned so that we can be forearmed and not to follow the worldly path - Matthew 7:13-14
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
How does your religion explain why suffering and evil happen? Things like birth defects, the death of innocent people, starvation and sickness in developing nations, dictators, etc. I can't believe in a god that doesn't keep these things from happening.
Some of those things can be explained by the fact that humans have free will to choose and some humans choose to be selfish instead of caring about their fellow man, but some things that happen to people (such as rape) were not chosen by them; rather, they are the result of the free will choices of other people. That is their fate. Things like birth defects are also the fate of some people. Since God determines our fate, I believe that God is responsible for the things that are outside of our control.

It makes no sense that God would keep these things from happening since the only way to do that would be to take away human free will, in which case humans would simply be like God's programmed robots.

Moreover, God purposely created a material world in which He knew we would suffer, so why would God keep these things from happening?

The reason for most of the suffering, other than man's inhumanity to man, is because we live in a material world which is subject to suffering, the struggle to survive to eat and live, having a physical body that is subject to disease, and ultimately death, which causes suffering for the loved ones who are left behind. The suffering we have to endure in this material world will no longer exist after we die and cross over to the spiritual world.
 
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