Sand Dancer
Crazy Cat Lady
Because he said he creates evil. Many original verses remain even when different ideas came into play. That one was prior to the idea of the devil.
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Suffering and evil
- Thread starter Sand Dancer
- Start date
nPeace
Veteran Member
"I create evil", does not mean I created viruses, and rapists.
Just as "I created all things" does not mean I created cars and atom bombs... or the Statue of Liberty.
Right?
Sand Dancer
Crazy Cat Lady
Well, creating some evil is bad enough.
nPeace
Veteran Member
Not really.
Evil is necessary where evil exists.
For example, putting someone in prison in order to protect others is necessary... or otherwise removing them - execution.
Even an animal may need to be "taken out", to save one in harms way.
By doing that you have done an evil.
When you take someone and lock them away, from family, depriving them of their freedom, you have done evil.
Jehovah said, I form light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity (evil); I, Jehovah, am doing all these things. (Isaiah 45:7), because there are times when evil is necessary.
Jehovah Makes Peace, Creates Evil
This reference to Jehovah’s creating darkness and evil has been gleefully seized upon by skeptics, atheists and other critics of the Bible to support their position that it is not the inspired Word of God but merely a collection of ancient writings of a primitive people. However, their prejudice, doubtless begotten by a lurking suspicion that their position is not as strong as they would like it to be, has blinded them to a reasonable consideration of this text as well as of the rest of the Bible. Instead of following such a course, let us heed the counsel of the Bible’s Author, “Come now, and let us reason together,” and see just what light reason and the Bible itself throw on the meaning of this scripture. - Isaiah 1:18.
Please read further to see why the skeptic's reasoning is wrong.
Sand Dancer
Crazy Cat Lady
Those examples are different than true evil. Those are responses to evil or at least a harmful situation. As long as the response is in proportion to the situation, it's not evil. Evil is killing kids for making fun of a bald man.
nPeace
Veteran Member
Perhaps if we check the original word usage 'evil', it will help.
EVIL
That which results in pain, sorrow, or distress. In order to convey the correct thought in English, the very comprehensive Hebrew word raʽ is variously translated as “bad,” “gloomy,” “ugly,” “evil,” “calamitous,” “malignant,” “ungenerous,” and “envious,” depending upon the context. (Genesis 2:9; Genesis 40:7; Genesis 41:3; Exodus 33:4; Deuteronomy 6:22; Deuteronomy 28:35; Proverbs 23:6; Proverbs 28:22) The Greek word ka·kosʹ may be defined as that which is (1) morally evil and (2) destructive; among the ways it has been translated are: “bad,” “evil,” “hurtful,” “injurious,” “wrong.” (Romans 7:19; Romans 12:17; Colossians 3:5; Titus 1:12; Hebrews 5:14) The Hebrew verb qa·lalʹ means “call down evil upon.” - See MALEDICTION.
The Meaning of Jehovah’s Bringing Evil. Rightly, Jehovah brought evil or calamity upon Adam for his disobedience. Hence, in the Scriptures, Jehovah is referred to as the Creator of evil or calamity. (Isaiah 45:7; compare KJ.) His enforcing of the penalty for sin, namely, death, has proved to be an evil, or a calamity, for mankind. So, then, evil is not always synonymous with wrongdoing. Examples of evils or calamities created by Jehovah are the Flood of Noah’s day and the Ten Plagues visited upon Egypt. But these evils were not wrongs. Rather, the rightful administration of justice against wrongdoers was involved in both cases. However, at times Jehovah, in his mercy, has refrained from bringing the intended calamity or evil in execution of his righteous judgment because of the repentance on the part of those concerned. (Jonah 3:10) Additionally, in having a warning given, Jehovah has undeservedly provided opportunities for the practicers of bad to change their course and thus to keep living. - Ezekiel 33:11.
idea
Question Everything
If God is the creator, then God is the creator.
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
What you mean is that God creates evil as well as beauty and good things.
The question is though, is it God that purposely gives us cancerous growth, or is it that mankind is effectively responsible, not necessarily on an individual basis, but on a collective basis as well.
eg. greed in mechanised farming and artificial fertilizers .. environmental pollution .. failing to pray and fast
i.e. our sins
Naturally, we all have to die of something .. we don't last forever.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
God created the universe with all the laws of physics necessary to eventually arrive at the evolution of sentient life. Included in this life is all its flaws. Diseases. Psycholgocial pathologies. Moral failings. Becasue all of this can be causally traced back to God's creating, God is ultimately responsible for it all.
Not according to Deuteronomy 32:5.
Just as you can’t blame a parent whose child chose to steal, or murder, or whatever.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
You can't take a violin away from someone and then expect him to play it.
idea
Question Everything
Why do you think death necessary? I don't see it as being necessary for anything.
If someone gets cancer, unless they purposefully exposed themselves to carcinogens, no - the laws of nature are not the fault of humans.
idea
Question Everything
Then god isn't God, not a parent, not the creator.
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
It is by design .. this life is mortal.
It might not be the fault of the individual, but collectively we are responsible for many things .. such as climate-change and industrial pollution.
To suggest that these things don't have any negative effects on us, is unreasonable.
idea
Question Everything
If Eve killed Adam, not because of self defense, just outright murder, in a court if law - sure, there are actions that justice requires death penalty.
Do you believe the penalty for eating an apple should be death? Let's say you are in the jury, some kid stole an apple from their neighbor - you think the *just* punishment for eating an apple is??
It's a horrible design - to design death? Would you be impressed with a car designed to kill you? Would you worship a civil engineer who designed a house that was purposefully created to collapse and take out your family?
I'm pretty sure humans did not collectively create the sun, did not create the earth, did not create the laws of nature.
Even if my great grandparents did - is it just to punish me for what my grandparents did?
Not just, not loving...
Much better to go through life believing it's just the laws if nature - than to go through life believing an unjust, unloving, monster is floating around out there purposefully creating suffering.
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
I don't believe that literally, the punishment of "eating the forbidden fruit" is death.
Mankind was never meant to live forever on this earth. This physical existence
does not support that.
There is not a lot we can do about it .. we must all die.
What we can do something about, is what we do while we are here.
idea
Question Everything
I don't think any of the Bible literal.
Some fictional stories, like Aesop's fables, at least use good proverbs... other non-literal fiction has entertainment value... some non-literal fiction I find a bit pointless.
We can study biomedical fields, we already have done something, humans live longer now, and I hope through research and study we will continue to improve the quality and length of life.
Science, Engineering - these fields are doing what they can to alleviate suffering.
nPeace
Veteran Member
That's your belief. It's not mine.
nPeace
Veteran Member
It is understood that Adam's life depended on remaining obedient to God - the source of life.
It is evident the Bible writers understood this too.
(Deuteronomy 30:20) . . .by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice, and by sticking to him, for he is your life and by him you will endure a long time in the land. . .
So it was not a case of God killing Adam. God did not kill Adam.
Adam died at the age of 930, because he degenerated from the defect of sin and imperfection, being that he cut himself off from the life source.
It was a gradual process, which lasted nearly 1000 years more than we do.
He grew old, and died... like we do.
Being connected to God, that process is reversed.
Hence why Jesus was sent, to release mankind from sin and death, and reconnect them to the source of life... at least those who want it. John 3:16
That way, death will not rule as king. It will be no more.
(Revelation 21:4) . . .he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore.. . .
(1 Corinthians 15:26) . . .the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. . .
Bible writers also made it clear that death is not a punishment from God, but an enemy of God, which God is determined to get rid of.
(Romans 5:12) That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned. . .
(Romans 5:14-17) 14. . .death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the same way that Adam transgressed, who bears a resemblance to the one who was to come. 15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if by one man’s trespass many died, how much more did the undeserved kindness of God and his free gift by the undeserved kindness of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to many! 16 Also, it is not the same with the free gift as with the way things worked through the one man who sinned. For the judgment after one trespass was condemnation, but the gift after many trespasses was a declaration of righteousness. 17 For if by the trespass of the one man death ruled as king through that one, how much more will those who receive the abundance of the undeserved kindness and of the free gift of righteousness rule as kings in life through the one person, Jesus Christ!
(1 Corinthians 15:54-57) 54. . .“Death is swallowed up forever.” 55 “Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting?” 56 The sting producing death is sin, and the power for sin is the Law. 57 But thanks to God, for he gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!
Clearly, Bible writers did not indicate that death was from God.
They made it clear that God is love, and his undeserved kindness is a gift... to all who would accept it.
Sadly, many don't appreciate it, and they won't. ...and cannot benefit from that gift.