Sued for playing Christmas music?

[Kathryn]

It is if you view music as intellectual property, rather than something that you have some "right" to... for reasons that escape me. I guess this isn't the case for you.

Your take on music copyright is a lot more socialist than I'd expect from you.

Like I've said repeatedly, I understand the copyright issue. My beef is more with the bureaucrats whose job involves casing out companies by "shopping" them - ie, busting in on them, and then reporting bank tellers or cashiers who are listening to Christmas music they've paid for on equipment they've paid for, and then suing the company.

 

[waitasec]

Like I've said repeatedly, I understand the copyright issue. My beef is more with the bureaucrats whose job involves casing out companies by "shopping" them - ie, busting in on them, and then reporting bank tellers or cashiers who are listening to Christmas music they've paid for on equipment they've paid for, and then suing the company.

the bureaucrats whose job it is to make sure the costs are low....
hence the reason they don't want to pay for licensing christmas music

 

[riley2112]

It's no different than movies and dvds. It's fine to watch them in your home for personal enjoyment, but it is against copyright laws to show it in public. The same goes for music.

If your company really wants to play Christmas music, then they can go through one of the many media companies that provide that service for a fee.

It does not work that way. Once the music is played on the radio it is being played for the public which means that any store or buisness can pipe music being played from a radio into their place of buisness and not be breaking any laws.

 

[waitasec]

It does not work that way. Once the music is played on the radio it is being played for the public which means that any store or buisness can pipe music being played from a radio into their place of buisness and not be breaking any laws.

but once the radio is broadcasted in a place of business, it's another ball of wax...

 

[waitasec]

Playing Music In Public May Require Copyright Clearance, BMI Reminds Small Business Owners | News | BMI.com

When you purchase a CD or tape of music, Annastas said, you buy the right to play that music in your home and car, or in private gatherings of family and acquaintances. If you play music in a business, whether the music is recorded or live, copyright law requires that you obtain permission from the composers of that music.


just think for a moment...
how do songwriters get paid?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Like I've said repeatedly, I understand the copyright issue. My beef is more with the bureaucrats whose job involves casing out companies by "shopping" them - ie, busting in on them, and then reporting bank tellers or cashiers who are listening to Christmas music they've paid for on equipment they've paid for, and then suing the company.

Why would it matter who paid for the radio? I bought my own scanner/printer dealie; does this give me the right to make copies of my books and give them to my friends without paying the authors?

If not, then how is a radio different? Do you hold some sort of copyright on music that goes through a radio that you own?

 

[riley2112]

but once the radio is broadcasted in a place of business, it's another ball of wax...

Really, I am not saying you are wrong. However could you please explain how that would work given the fact that radio stations at time broadcast from places of businesses to promo one thing or another. Which would be broadcasting in a place of business.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It does not work that way. Once the music is played on the radio it is being played for the public which means that any store or buisness can pipe music being played from a radio into their place of buisness and not be breaking any laws.

Actually, it doesn't work THAT way. The fact that a copyright holder has granted a radio station a licence to a work doesn't mean that they've granted any rights to *you* to redistribute it, including by pumping it into a workplace.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Really, I am not saying you are wrong. However could you please explain how that would work given the fact that radio stations at time broadcast from places of businesses to promo one thing or another. Which would be broadcasting in a place of business.

... BY THE RADIO STATION, i.e. the licence-holder to the music.

As an analogy, I could purchase the rights to perform a play, and then to perform the play, I secure a venue. This doesn't mean tbat tbe venue somehow magically acquires the right to have some other theatre company come in and perform the play without paying for it.

 

[riley2112]

... BY THE RADIO STATION, i.e. the licence-holder to the music.

As an analogy, I could purchase the rights to perform a play, and then to perform the play, I secure a venue. This doesn't mean tbat tbe venue somehow magically acquires the right to have some other theatre company come in and perform the play without paying for it.

That kinda make sense, I am just glad no one comes into my car lot and sues me, I alway have classic rock playing, don't tell on me, OK?:no:

 

[riley2112]

The spirit of the law is that responsibility falls to the end-user, so your re-use of a radio station is considered a "re-broadcast" and is therefore subject to fees.
You are correct, thank you for letting me know.

 

[Skwim]

Like I said, it's just a gripe. What a Scrooge of a job - driving around popping into businesses, just hoping to catch some office girls or bank tellers listening to a little radio they brought from home so you can sue the company they work for.

I don't think it's the people whose job it is to catch scofflaws that bothers you as much as it is the seemingly harmlessness of the offense. And of course it isn't "some office girls or bank tellers listening to a little radio they brought from home," but the broadcasting of the music to a wider audience.

A point of information for everyone.

" , , ,a public performance of a radio broadcast of a musical composition by means of a live retransmission or a delayed audiotape transmission is generally not permitted without permission from the owners of copyright in the musical composition. This permission is normally obtained from the "performance rights" groups, ASCAP, BMI, SESAC, etc., but may be obtained directly from the copyright owner as well.
source

​

Playing music illegally is no different than theft of merchandise, which is why there are penalties for violating copyright laws. That someone has to go around and make sure people aren't stealing intellectual and performance property is no different in kind than the night patrol cop checking businesses to make sure they're not being robbed. The onus of this enforcement doesn't belong on the enforcer, but those parties who try to cheat the owner of the work out of his due compensation.

Actually, it doesn't work THAT way. The fact that a copyright holder has granted a radio station a licence to a work doesn't mean that they've granted any rights to *you* to redistribute it, including by pumping it into a workplace.

As an analogy, I could purchase the rights to perform a play, and then to perform the play, I secure a venue. This doesn't mean tbat tbe venue somehow magically acquires the right to have some other theatre company come in and perform the play without paying for it.

True, and there's a bit more to it all. The venue has to be named, its capacity indicated, number of planned performances, opening and closing dates, ticket price range, and whether or not it's a for profit or non-profit organization putting on the play. These factors all go into determining the licensing fee. Of course, one could still go ahead and purchase the rights, listing all the pertinent facts before securing the venue, but that would be pretty foolish in my opinion.

 

[pwfaith]

It's the 'open to the public' part that is what gets you. Listening to a radio in one's cube, no big deal. Listening to head phones, no big deal.

Projecting it so that the entire store/office/customers can hear it means you're dodging paying for whatever RIAA fee for service systems exist these days. Now, the local dollar store near me certainly just throws up a radio, but they're usually more concerned about armed robbery, not copyright violation.

This is also, btw, why most restaurants don't sing 'happy birthday' anymore. THat song too is copyrighted.

What a pathetic and greedy world we live in. I have not sympathies for the music makers or people's who job it is to catch people in these violations. It's all about GREED!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What a pathetic and greedy world we live in. I have not sympathies for the music makers or people's who job it is to catch people in these violations. It's all about GREED!

Isn't it also "greed" to take something you didn't pay for?

 

[Skwim]

What a pathetic and greedy world we live in. I have not sympathies for the music makers or people's who job it is to catch people in these violations. It's all about GREED!

I await the time your ox gets gored.

 

[waitasec]

What a pathetic and greedy world we live in. I have not sympathies for the music makers or people's who job it is to catch people in these violations. It's all about GREED!

so how do you think songwriters get paid?

 

[Drolefille]

What a pathetic and greedy world we live in. I have not sympathies for the music makers or people's who job it is to catch people in these violations. It's all about GREED!

Say this is policy, and now no one will make music anymore.

Now what?

 

[waitasec]

Say this is policy, and now no one will make music anymore.

Now what?

music is often taken for granted...
i don't blame pwfaith and kathryn for holding the position they do...

what is entailed when writing a song is not something people usually think about. a songwriter invests their money by hiring a singer, in some cases musicians and a studio to make a demo of the song which would be presented to a producer, artist or a manager or whoever has the ability to take the song to the next level
for every 100 songs one writes they may get something but i'm also being pretty generous with the odds...

 

[Drolefille]

music is often taken for granted...
i don't blame pwfaith and kathryn for holding the position they do...

what is entailed when writing a song is not something people usually think about. a songwriter invests their money by hiring a singer, in some cases musicians and a studio to make a demo of the song which would be presented to a producer, artist or a manager or whoever has the ability to take the song to the next level
for every 100 songs one writes they may get something but i'm also being pretty generous with the odds...

Eh just because lots of people take it for granted doesn't mean that people should keep doing so.

Odds are long on musicians making it. If you don't think the music is worth paying for then don't pay for it, but don't listen to it either. You pay for the radio through listening to ads - and through listening to what ClearChannel wants you to hear. Spotify and Pandora and last.fm will all let you listen for free with commercials and ads. But if you're a business pay up or no playing it.

I dislike the music companies, but they're pretty much the wrong target here. They have to protect their copyrights or risk losing them.

 

[waitasec]

Eh just because lots of people take it for granted doesn't mean that people should keep doing so.

i agree... but i'm not surprised there are people who hold this position and it's in conversations like these that educate people, if they want to be that is.

Odds are long on musicians making it. If you don't think the music is worth paying for then don't pay for it, but don't listen to it either. You pay for the radio through listening to ads - and through listening to what ClearChannel wants you to hear. Spotify and Pandora and last.fm will all let you listen for free with commercials and ads. But if you're a business pay up or no playing it.

it is called the music business for a reason