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Sued for playing Christmas music?

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Actually, we've had choirs come in all week, for free, to sing in our lobby.

It's ok, I got my Christmas music fix. As I've said several times, what gets me the most about this whole thing is the firm who sends people out at Christmas time trying to bust people for playing a radio at work where customers can hear it.

I guess I shouldn't complain. I can, after all, have a radio playing softly in my own private office. However, if a customer walks in, I have to turn it off, even if the customer asks me to leave it on. Also, heaven forbid that a customer out in the lobby might hear the stray note - that's grounds for a lawsuit.

Have mercy!
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
At the bank where I work, we are not allowed to play Christmas music in any of the 1600+ locations which are open to the public.

Many employees think it's because of some sort of political correctness on the part of upper management, but here's the real reason:

There are actually individuals who make a living working for companies who SUE other companies for playing copyrighted music during the holidays.

Yes, it's true - these companies employ individuals to walk around all during the holidays, going into public businesses and hoping to catch them playing Christmas music - so they can sue them.

Personally, I think that is an absolutely pathetic way to make a living, and I'd hate to live a day in their shoes, let alone try to actually tell anyone what my job was. I mean, I understand that music is copyrighted but honestly - no radio at work?

I think it's ridiculous myself. Your thoughts?
is this done ONLY at christmas time...or done in general?
can you provide the names of these companies?

i know that if a coffee house, for an example, hasn't paid a licensing fee for the music their playing (religious or non) they do get fined...
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
What a crap job - driving around casing out places at Christmas time hoping to catch some girls in the office playing Christmas music so you can sue them.

Yeah, poor Nat King Cole and Mariah Carey and James Taylor and Mannheim Steamroller and Bing Crosby...they're losing money every time some customer in the line at the bank hears their song.

Oh, and we're making so much money OFF those songs!

:facepalm:

Look, I understand copyright laws. My complaint is more with the whole idea that there would be someone whose JOB is to drive around trying to bust people for playing the radio at work.

nat king cole and mariah carey didn't necessarily write these tunes though...
consider a struggling songwriter who gets their song on a playlist that includes famous christmas songs which are being licensed to banks and super markets and the like... how else do you suppose a songwriter gets paid if someone isn't making sure that those who are exploiting music are paying for the licensing?
it's not a crap job for someone who works for a performing rights organization to do that job, in fact, as a songwriter i appreciate it...
there have been times i've heard my music on TV and was never paid for it until i brought it to my performing rights organization's attention...
 

blackout

Violet.
Actually, we've had choirs come in all week, for free, to sing in our lobby.

Yes, but I highly doubt they stayed all day every day,
or sang even a two hour set. or a one hour set.
or even a thirty minute set.

They were out caroling all different places for fun.
Not to provide a continual stream of christmas music
in one place of business for hours at a time.
Like a radio, or a CD player, or any paid musician or DJ.

If you had choirs with nothing better to do
than sing in a single bank lobby for hours on end
without pay,
then I've entered the twilight zone.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Like I said, it's just a gripe. What a Scrooge of a job - driving around popping into businesses, just hoping to catch some office girls or bank tellers listening to a little radio they brought from home so you can sue the company they work for.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Like I said, it's just a gripe. What a Scrooge of a job - driving around popping into businesses, just hoping to catch some office girls or bank tellers listening to a little radio they brought from home so you can sue the company they work for.

the scrooges are the ones who take advantage of what the music brings and doesn't pay for it...talk about being cheap.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I guess I shouldn't complain. I can, after all, have a radio playing softly in my own private office. However, if a customer walks in, I have to turn it off, even if the customer asks me to leave it on. Also, heaven forbid that a customer out in the lobby might hear the stray note - that's grounds for a lawsuit.
Is this policy only for Christmas music? Or is it a year-round policy that only becomes a personal issue at Christmastime?

There are music services that businesses can subscribe to that will pump copyright-cleared music into your workplace... including Christmas music when it's in season. This service comes with a fee, though. If you have a problem with the corporate policy, maybe you should suggest one of these services to the higher-ups.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
My question is, how do copyright laws vary for Christmas songs? There are tons of businesses that play music year round without any issues, from sources of both paid subscriptions and free radio.
And considering many Christmas songs (especially traditional and Jesus songs) are public domain those songs you can't be sued for playing. But I have been complaining since early November about how many places around here that started playing only Christmas music.


Is this policy only for Christmas music? Or is it a year-round policy that only becomes a personal issue at Christmastime?
It's probably just Christmas, since it is the season for many people to get on edge and look for a reason to complain about Christmas, just as there are people who are also on edge and look for people who complain about Christmas to complain about.
 

Drolefille

PolyPanGeekGirl
My question is, how do copyright laws vary for Christmas songs? There are tons of businesses that play music year round without any issues, from sources of both paid subscriptions and free radio.
And considering many Christmas songs (especially traditional and Jesus songs) are public domain those songs you can't be sued for playing. But I have been complaining since early November about how many places around here that started playing only Christmas music.


It's probably just Christmas, since it is the season for many people to get on edge and look for a reason to complain about Christmas, just as there are people who are also on edge and look for people who complain about Christmas to complain about.

No, the stores I've worked in when I worked retail only played from licensed sources year round for the same reason. Now the dollar store that's next door to my current workplace and is in a poor and high crime area plays from a tiny boom box once in a rare while. I have a feeling that this isn't the chain's policy.

While most traditional songs are out of copyright - anyone can go carol Adeste Fideles for example - Beyonce or Bieber's performances of them aren't. So playing off the radio in a commercial business - while one of the really asshat things that the RIAA sues you for - is technically 'illegal' (or actionable) no matter the season. (Even carolers could theoretically get in trouble if they sang a modern song and were making money on it. )

Odds of someone actually coming to your store or branch and catching you are slim to none, but if a business got burned before odds are they won't risk getting burned again. (And who knows whether there's REALLY someone doing that or if it was happenstance - Mr. RIAABoss or his lawyer banks at Twelve Eighths bank and busted them.)

Copyright law is FUBAR in the US imo, but there's nothing different about Christmas songs. RIAA is pretty much universally loathed for this reason, even by many artists.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
No, the stores I've worked in when I worked retail only played from licensed sources year round for the same reason. Now the dollar store that's next door to my current workplace and is in a poor and high crime area plays from a tiny boom box once in a rare while. I have a feeling that this isn't the chain's policy.
It does seem that more play from a paid subscription, but still there are many that play local radio stations.
The music industry doesn't care what time of year it is and clings to their "ownership" on a daily basis, but there is also issue people get upset about anything and everything that is Christmas, anti-Christmas, and anti-anti-Christmas. That's why I would suspect, especially this time of year, it's seasonal motivated because some people really have nothing better to do.
 

Drolefille

PolyPanGeekGirl
It does seem that more play from a paid subscription, but still there are many that play local radio stations.
The music industry doesn't care what time of year it is and clings to their "ownership" on a daily basis, but there is also issue people get upset about anything and everything that is Christmas, anti-Christmas, and anti-anti-Christmas. That's why I would suspect, especially this time of year, it's seasonal motivated because some people really have nothing better to do.
Perhaps, but if it's a paid job that someone does I suspect it's year round. And if it's not then I bet it's more anecdotal than factual. (Not that it doesn't happen that businesses get in trouble, just that it's not terribly common.)
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
the scrooges are the ones who take advantage of what the music brings and doesn't pay for it...talk about being cheap.

Yeah, those bank tellers making 10 bucks an hour who bring their CD player and the CDs they bought to work are real Scrooges.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Is this policy only for Christmas music? Or is it a year-round policy that only becomes a personal issue at Christmastime?

It's a year round policy but is reinforced at Christmastime because so many workers want to listen to Christmas music while at work. Also, customers often ask why we're not playing any music - but this is usually only at Christmas time as well. So it would be a common idea throughout our very large company for workers to simply bring in a small radio or CD and turn on the Christmas music while at work. After all, our lobbies are decked out in Christmas decorations and that sort of sets the mood.

So, every year at this time, we get the memos reminding us that it's against policy, and WHY it's against policy - because we are likely to be targeted (as a very large bank we're a big target) for legal action.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Could an individual be sued for playing their car radio sitting in traffic/parked with the window down where other members of the public can hear?

No. The radio station has paid for the rights to broadcast the music. If you go into a bar and listen to the band, they had to pay (through the bar management) fees to perform copyrighted songs in public.

Busking (street performing, e.g. The Naked Cowboy in NYC) is exempt from such royalty payments under the First Amendment as free public artistic expression. However, the busker may have to obtain a permit in some jurisdictions.
 
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Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Btw, free on-line guitar lesson and tab/chord sheet sites have been threatened with lawsuits unless they removed the tabs/chord sheets. Some sites are for-pay to learn from. Those sites have paid for licenses. The only huge tab site that is getting away unscathed is Ultimate Guitar because it's domiciled in Russia, outside the jurisdiction of the music publishers.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Yeah, those bank tellers making 10 bucks an hour who bring their CD player and the CDs they bought to work are real Scrooges.
I think the "scrooge" analogy fits better with the bank itself in this case. It's reasonable to want to have music at work; it's the bank that decided not to provide some properly licensed form of music.

It's a year round policy but is reinforced at Christmastime because so many workers want to listen to Christmas music while at work. Also, customers often ask why we're not playing any music - but this is usually only at Christmas time as well. So it would be a common idea throughout our very large company for workers to simply bring in a small radio or CD and turn on the Christmas music while at work. After all, our lobbies are decked out in Christmas decorations and that sort of sets the mood.

So, every year at this time, we get the memos reminding us that it's against policy, and WHY it's against policy - because we are likely to be targeted (as a very large bank we're a big target) for legal action.
Okay... so it's really not a "war on Christmas" thing; it's just a policy that's in place year round but gets reiterated at Christmas.

I've worked for a big American firm before and I remember what it was like dealing with all the policies and procedures. Fairly often, someone at our local office would come up with a good idea for something or other that deviated from the letter of the official policy, but the local managers would have to "check with Omaha" before implementing it... and often, the answer to the request to change the policy or exempt that office from it was "no".

It sounds like your situation (at least in this case) might be similar. Personally, I'd say if there's fault to be assigned here, it's with your company for ignoring a reasonable accommodation for employees and customers (assuming that head office has been told about it, and the people in your office don't just gripe without telling anyone in a position to change things), not with the copyright owners acting protecting their intellectual property.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I think the "scrooge" analogy fits better with the bank itself in this case. It's reasonable to want to have music at work; it's the bank that decided not to provide some properly licensed form of music.


Okay... so it's really not a "war on Christmas" thing; it's just a policy that's in place year round but gets reiterated at Christmas.

I've worked for a big American firm before and I remember what it was like dealing with all the policies and procedures. Fairly often, someone at our local office would come up with a good idea for something or other that deviated from the letter of the official policy, but the local managers would have to "check with Omaha" before implementing it... and often, the answer to the request to change the policy or exempt that office from it was "no".

It sounds like your situation (at least in this case) might be similar. Personally, I'd say if there's fault to be assigned here, it's with your company for ignoring a reasonable accommodation for employees and customers (assuming that head office has been told about it, and the people in your office don't just gripe without telling anyone in a position to change things), not with the copyright owners acting protecting their intellectual property.


Well, the finances and expenses at banks are so closely monitored now, it would probably be considered an unnecessary expense. We would have to provide the service to over 1700 locations. Not likely.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Well, the finances and expenses at banks are so closely monitored now, it would probably be considered an unnecessary expense. We would have to provide the service to over 1700 locations. Not likely.
Could be... though I'm sure that a bank would see the potential value in improving the customer experience, but regardless, I think that if you're going to be mad at anyone, it should be with the decision-makers in your company, not with the people who are trying to make sure that artists get paid for their work.

I mean, if you thought your department deserved a Christmas lunch (something that's been a tradition at most companies I've worked at) but your manager didn't want to pay for it, would you get mad at your server for bringing you a bill for your food?
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Could be... though I'm sure that a bank would see the potential value in improving the customer experience, but regardless, I think that if you're going to be mad at anyone, it should be with the decision-makers in your company, not with the people who are trying to make sure that artists get paid for their work.

I mean, if you thought your department deserved a Christmas lunch (something that's been a tradition at most companies I've worked at) but your manager didn't want to pay for it, would you get mad at your server for bringing you a bill for your food?

Not the right analogy. If I was standing in line at Family Dollar and there was a CD player playing Christmas music, and some bureaucrat came in and said it had to be shut off because some other bureacrat might sue Family Dollar for playing the CD, I'd be ticked off at the bureaucrats, not the cashier at Family Dollar.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Not the right analogy.
It is if you view music as intellectual property, rather than something that you have some "right" to... for reasons that escape me. I guess this isn't the case for you.

Your take on music copyright is a lot more socialist than I'd expect from you. ;)
 
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