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Succumbing to Zealotry

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
Zealotry and Fanaticism to me seems like a negative thing, but wether people realize it or not, they do fall into this pitfall from time to time. They think they are being activists for a cause they believe in, and before they know it... Well...

1395413729000-A01-SUMMARY-03.jpg


Where is that tipping point? When does reasonable passion for a cause we believe in turn into unreasonable delusion? Who is to say what is reasonable and what is unreasonable? Does a sense of righteousness play a role in this?
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
I know this is a serious thread, but I did manage to misread the lower left sign as 'GOD HATES BANANAS'.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
...


Where is that tipping point? When does reasonable passion for a cause we believe in turn into unreasonable delusion? Who is to say what is reasonable and what is unreasonable? Does a sense of righteousness play a role in this?

For the first bold one: That defends if you are an absolutist or relativist when it comes to rationality. For the second one: Yes, in all likelihood. That is for Western culture the result of Greek philosophy married to Christianity.
 

AlexanderG

Active Member
Zealotry and Fanaticism to me seems like a negative thing, but wether people realize it or not, they do fall into this pitfall from time to time. They think they are being activists for a cause they believe in, and before they know it... Well...

1395413729000-A01-SUMMARY-03.jpg


Where is that tipping point? When does reasonable passion for a cause we believe in turn into unreasonable delusion? Who is to say what is reasonable and what is unreasonable? Does a sense of righteousness play a role in this?

One of the main reasons I argue with people about their religious beliefs is because I don't think these beliefs correspond to reality.

For me, the line between activism and zealotry is when you cause unnecessary, meaningless, or gratuitous harm. And if you're harming real people to achieve a "greater good" that is entirely imaginary, then you're causing unnecessary harm. Gay conversion therapy falls into this category, along with purity culture, abstinence-only education, and generally every instance of guilt, shame, and terror arising out of conservative religious indoctrination with beliefs that have no tether to reality.

If sin doesn't exist, nor heaven or hell, then a lot of people are living in an emotional wasteland for no reason. They are harming other people, including their children, for no reason.

All of this grief, all of this pain, is in service to concepts that no one can demonstrate are real. It's a tragedy I can't even put in to words, but I'm here trying to change people's minds because that's something I can do.

Edit: Note that I'm also against left-oriented extremists, like PETA activists who break into labs and release the mice into the wild, destroying years worth of medical research so the mice can be confused outside of their cages and promptly eaten by some predator.
 

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
One of the main reasons I argue with people about their religious beliefs is because I don't think these beliefs correspond to reality.

For me, the line between activism and zealotry is when you cause unnecessary, meaningless, or gratuitous harm. And if you're harming real people to achieve a "greater good" that is entirely imaginary, then you're causing unnecessary harm. Gay conversion therapy falls into this category, along with purity culture, abstinence-only education, and generally every instance of guilt, shame, and terror arising out of conservative religious indoctrination with beliefs that have no tether to reality.

If sin doesn't exist, nor heaven or hell, then a lot of people are living in an emotional wasteland for no reason. They are harming other people, including their children, for no reason.

All of this grief, all of this pain, is in service to concepts that no one can demonstrate are real. It's a tragedy I can't even put in to words, but I'm here trying to change people's minds because that's something I can do.

Edit: Note that I'm also against left-oriented extremists, like PETA activists who break into labs and release the mice into the wild, destroying years worth of medical research so the mice can be confused outside of their cages and promptly eaten by some predator.

But zealotry isn't limited to religions.

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All it takes is an idea that people feel strongly about.

That's what makes it so deceptive... It's based in the idea that you are standing up for something you think is right.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
One of the main reasons I argue with people about their religious beliefs is because I don't think these beliefs correspond to reality.

...

I agree with ... in practice.

But the first part depends on what reality and religion is. The scholars don't quite agree on those 2. And don't start with correspondence. :D
 

AlexanderG

Active Member
I agree with ... in practice.

But the first part depends on what reality and religion is. The scholars don't quite agree on those 2. And don't start with correspondence. :D

A very good point. If people have fundamentally different epistemologies and values, then there's little common ground for agreement.

I just get frustrated when people tell me they have a vague emotional feeling that their harmful behavior will accrue great benefits in an alternate supernatural realm, and I'm standing there pointing to empirical data that shows they are causing great harm to people in this reality that we all agree exists.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
A very good point. If people have fundamentally different epistemologies and values, then there's little common ground for agreement.

I just get frustrated when people tell me they have a vague emotional feeling that their harmful behavior will accrue great benefits in an alternate supernatural realm, and I'm standing there pointing to empirical data that shows they are causing great harm to people in this reality that we all agree exists.

Good luck with that one. Let me show you the problem and it has nothing to do with religion. If something is subjective. I.e. I can do it subjectively, then I can trick myself into it being objective, even if it is not, because I can do it (subjectively). This reality is in part different for different subjective beliefs, as long as they work in practice.
 

AlexanderG

Active Member
But zealotry isn't limited to religions.

GettyImages-120401427.0.0.jpg


All it takes is an idea that people feel strongly about.

That's what makes it so deceptive... It's based in the idea that you are standing up for something you think is right.

Definitely. That's why I tunnel down to ask what reliable, demonstrable tools we have to differentiate between imaginary conceptual ideas and ideas that correspond to reality. We now have substantial evidence that communism doesn't work well, and fascism doesn't work well, and that religious beliefs are unjustifiable.

Unfortunately, we also have substantial evidence that human psychology is flawed and readily allows the belief of false ideas through social pressure, charismatic individuals, or indoctrination.
 

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
Definitely. That's why I tunnel down to ask what reliable, demonstrable tools we have to differentiate between imaginary conceptual ideas and ideas that correspond to reality. We now have substantial evidence that communism doesn't work well, and fascism doesn't work well, and that religious beliefs are unjustifiable.

Unfortunately, we also have substantial evidence that human psychology is flawed and readily allows the belief of false ideas through social pressure, charismatic individuals, or indoctrination.

Very true... We could make logic and reasoning a mandatory subject in school to help combat that, but there are two problems with this.

Firstly, who's logic and reasoning would we be taught? That's something that those in power could easily utilize to brain wash individuals into "thinking correctly" similar to reeducation camps.

Secondly, does our leadership really want free thinking and logical people who won't be so quick to carry the banners that they try to influence people into carrying? Folks may not be so quick to leap to political causes if they understood the broader implications of where they were based or were heading.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Definitely. That's why I tunnel down to ask what reliable, demonstrable tools we have to differentiate between imaginary conceptual ideas and ideas that correspond to reality. We now have substantial evidence that communism doesn't work well, and fascism doesn't work well, and that religious beliefs are unjustifiable.

Unfortunately, we also have substantial evidence that human psychology is flawed and readily allows the belief of false ideas through social pressure, charismatic individuals, or indoctrination.

I have also struggled with that one. My subjective personal and in the end objectively irrational answer is that I in part believe in the positive worth of humans and I have to do that in some sense dogmatically and with faith.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Very true... We could make logic and reasoning a mandatory subject in school to help combat that, but there are two problems with this.

Firstly, who's logic and reasoning would we be taught? That's something that those in power could easily utilize to brain wash individuals into "thinking correctly" similar to reeducation camps.

Secondly, does our leadership really want free thinking and logical people who won't be so quick to carry the banners that they try to influence people into carrying? Folks may not be so quick to leap to political causes if they understood the broader implications of where they were based or were heading.

I doubt some if not most people would like to be subjected to skepticism about logic and reason. And those in power wouldn't like it.
 

Psalm23

Well-Known Member
Zealotry and Fanaticism to me seems like a negative thing, but wether people realize it or not, they do fall into this pitfall from time to time. They think they are being activists for a cause they believe in, and before they know it... Well...

1395413729000-A01-SUMMARY-03.jpg


Where is that tipping point? When does reasonable passion for a cause we believe in turn into unreasonable delusion? Who is to say what is reasonable and what is unreasonable? Does a sense of righteousness play a role in this?

When one is being hateful towards others instead of loving, it has gone too far.
 

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
When one is being hateful towards others instead of loving, it has gone too far.

If you ever listen to the testimony of those who leave cults, they didn't feel like they were acting hatefully towards people. They felt like they were trying to save them. What about in situations like these?

This is the problem with subjective existence... Sometimes we don't know how we are being perceived by others, or we can't recognize just how far off the deep end we've gone.
 

Psalm23

Well-Known Member
If you ever listen to the testimony of those who leave cults, they didn't feel like they were acting hatefully towards people. They felt like they were trying to save them. What about in situations like these?

This is the problem with subjective existence... Sometimes we don't know how we are being perceived by others, or we can't recognize just how far off the deep end we've gone.

I have listened to a book called Hating God Loving God by A. K. Davies. He grew up in a cult that taught parents to beat their children for the “ sins the they committed “ and “ the sins they didn’t know about”. He got out of the cult eventually. There was a lot of brain washing in the cult, physical abuse, and the idea that a particular leader was getting direct revelation from God. Pride and superiority is evident in the attitude of the cult.
 

Psalm23

Well-Known Member
This is the problem with subjective existence... Sometimes we don't know how we are being perceived by others, or we can't recognize just how far off the deep end we've gone.

I believe it can be helpful to have an outside perspective. Though if one is deep into a wrong attitude or way of going, then one may not be willing to listen.
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
The solution to "zealotry" is to only ever engage with issues nobody, including ourselves, ever cares about.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Very true... We could make logic and reasoning a mandatory subject in school to help combat that, but there are two problems with this.

Firstly, who's logic and reasoning would we be taught?

It's not who - there are standard methods of logic such as deductive and inductive logic. There are also many forms of fallacies that could and should be taught.
 
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