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subjugation of sexuality=subjugation of woman

Shtef

Member
Firstly, let me begin by saying that while I hold many things in the Old and New Testament to be true, I am generally sceptical about the origin of a lot of the teachings, believing them to be the work of men with political or personal agendas.

Now, as many of you would be aware, before the rise of the Patriarchial religions it was the woman who held positions of power. They were the spiritual leaders, they were the politicians and they dominated the home. Men were only valued for their physical strength and sexuality. All of this took place at a time when sexual prohibitions did not exist. The act was actually revered.

Then all of a sudden we see the masculine religion of Judaism comeforth. It is quite the opposite to its matriarchal counterparts. Sex is no longer a phenomenon to be enjoyed freely and openly but something that, outside of the time and place designated to it, was dirty and sinful. Just about every aspect of the sexual experience was regulated, from how one should present themselves to when and why it should be practiced.

Now, what developed from this religion? Man became the dominant sex and it was he that was now the spiritual leader, the politician and the ruler of the household. Woman were now only valued for their ability to bear children and raise them.

It is my belief, and that's all it is, that the subjugation of sexuality and the rise in the dominance of the male are directly related. What is more, it is my contention that sexuality was subjugated as part of clever plan by men so that they would gain dominance over the opposite sex. Just as woman have been fighting to regain equality, if not dominance, over the last few decades, so too did the men of the ancient middle east.

I believe that they understood very well the power woman hold over man because of their sexuality. Let's face it, even the best of us men can be a real sucker for a pretty face and the prospect of intimacy with a beautiful woman. However, if that lady is not allowed to flaunt her sexuality, her ability to dominate is greatly diminished.

Just think about it for a moment. From around 6000 years ago right up until about the 1950's, a ladies roll in society was largely submissive. Incidentally the belief of society during this period was that sex is a sin outside of marriage and was something that should not be flaunted. Enter the 1960's and 70's and the sexual revolution and what happens? Woman, again, begin to express their sexuality and all of a sudden their social status begins to rise. Equal opportunities organisations spring up all around the western world and before we know it, woman are again equal to men and fast heading towards a position of dominance.

Oh yes, make no mistake, woman are the dominant sex and it is because of their sexuality and man's desire for it. When they are allowed to use it, they leave us men like floundering idiots, bowing to their every whim. Take away their ability to use it freely and then all of a sudden we feel more in control.

The purpose of this piece is to support my belief that, aside from rape or deciptful sex, there are very few prohibitions surrounding sex and that those that do exist within the Old and New Testament are the work of men seeking dominance over woman under the guise of divine revelation.

Any comments?
 

Aqualung

Tasty
Judaism did not "invent" patriarchal society. Have you ever read anything about the ancient greeks or anything along those lines?
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
even though a ketubah, the jewish marriage contract which has been pretty much the same since 80 BCE, secures a woman's right and maintains her property as her's should a divorce ever arise. Also setting up what a husband is obligated to give his wife, including sex which was considered a woman's right in a marriage.

http://judaism.about.com/cs/jewishweddings/f/ketubah.htm

you are right in saying:
It is my belief, and that's all it is...
i'm not saying that things were perfect but documents, like the Ketubah, were a landmark in women's rights especially in the time it became widely practiced in the Jewish faith.
 

Shtef

Member
Aqualung said:
Judaism did not "invent" patriarchal society. Have you ever read anything about the ancient greeks or anything along those lines?
I think if you will take the time and go back and read what I had to say, you will find that Judaism inventing patriarchal society was not the point I was trying to make. Who cares whether they invented it or not. It's actually irrelevant to my argument. now, stop being so pedantic, make a comment about what it was I was asserting or go away.
 

standing_on_one_foot

Well-Known Member
Well...personally, I think the religion was more used as a justification for male domination than the origin of it.

It's an intrigueing thought. I think that yeah, Judaism was a very male-dominated religion from the start, and I agree that a lot of the restrictions are related to subjugation, so I'm with you there. But I'm curious where your information on ancient gender roles is from? Sites, books, whatever you figure might be helpful.

I think cause and effect should be looked at. Example: did women gain social status because they were able to express their sexuality, or were women able to express their sexuality as a result of social gains? Did Judaism cause male-dominace, or did male-dominance affect Judaism? I've no idea how to prove things one way or another, but it's something to keep in mind.
 

Feathers in Hair

World's Tallest Hobbit
Very interesting, and a fascinating article. (If you'd like, I can give you notes on adding it to our collection of 'articles' here on RF.)

I've heard that other religions were the ones to promote a patriarchal view of theism before Judaism or other such religions- primarily those that featured Odin and Thor.

Since we're in the debate section, though, I hope I'm able to bring up a point. Even I, as a follower of a Dianic (female- centered) path, do not believe any gender is 'dominiant'. It would be a pretty sad state of affairs if we women's sexuality were our only 'source of power', so to speak. I'm not sure if I'm even aware enough to have a sexuality, but I hope I'm still respected here on RF, even if I don't use it.
 

standing_on_one_foot

Well-Known Member
Just thinking about this...slight side point. I suspect that birth control contributed a heckuva lot to women's expression of sexuality, I think (if you can control when you get pregnant, after all...). Kinda interesting to look at how things fit together. So were social gains related to birth control too, I wonder? Certainly not the only factor (I've no clue how significant), but I figure they fit in.

Cause and effect's a messy business.
 

Shtef

Member
standing_on_one_foot said:
I'm curious where your information on ancient gender roles is from?
Believe you me, I am no religious scholar. My first experience with matriarchal society came from one small piece of a book titled Conversations With God. I'd actually be surprised if you haven't at least heard of it. It touched briefly on the subject and I followed it up a little on the Internet, finding it to be true.

m
 

Shtef

Member
FeathersinHair said:
Since we're in the debate section, though, I hope I'm able to bring up a point. Even I, as a follower of a Dianic (female- centered) path, do not believe any gender is 'dominiant'. It would be a pretty sad state of affairs if we women's sexuality were our only 'source of power', so to speak. I'm not sure if I'm even aware enough to have a sexuality, but I hope I'm still respected here on RF, even if I don't use it.
I was aware at the time I sat down to write my piece that it might seem as though I saw woman purely as sexual objects. I can assure you that this is not the case and I certainly didn't intend for that angle to come across. Indeed, woman are much, much more than their sexuality, equal, and some may argue superior, to men in every aspect apart from physical strength. I just feel that if there were ever something that may tip the dominance scales in favour of woman, it would be their sexuality. This is not a statement against woman but one against men and our weakness.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
Hmmmm. Interesting thoughts there. :)


While I would be careful to suggest that my gender is superior in the department of sexuality, we do possess genitalia that provides strictly for pleasure and not for procreation purposes. I want to be sure that I am not being too explicit here for the sake of the forum, since I'm new here as of yesterday (hi, everyone). *waves*



I would suggest, that because of that difference, women are the keepers of sensual experience and ecstasy - both that can be felt outside the sexual experience. I don't believe that would make us superior, but I believe that's where our make-up provides for a diversity of human experience and understanding.



I also disagree with the contention that it was merely the Abrahamic religions that espoused patriarchal culture. The subjugation of women has been world-wide, and there are plenty of societies where this very subjugation still exists in full force. However, with the advent of the Bronze Age (I assume, I could be WAY off), women were reduced to submissive roles based on their physical strength capabilities as opposed to men. One could also say that we began our trek toward capitalistic ventures where one species or one gender or one tribe or one family could be exploited for the mass making of goods to be traded or sold for profit.




Don't get me wrong. I enjoy being a part of this economic system myself. Otherwise, I wouldn't be so free to market my own talents in free-lancing. :)



The point is that one could argue that exploitation does not necessarily have to be limited to religion. I don't agree with that. Women's subjugation was seen in the religion, but also in the economic structure, the political structure, etc. But you did bring up some interesting points to consider.



Peace,
Mystic
 

DakotaGypsy

Active Member
FeathersinHair said:
Very interesting, and a fascinating article. (If you'd like, I can give you notes on adding it to our collection of 'articles' here on RF.)

I've heard that other religions were the ones to promote a patriarchal view of theism before Judaism or other such religions- primarily those that featured Odin and Thor.

Since we're in the debate section, though, I hope I'm able to bring up a point. Even I, as a follower of a Dianic (female- centered) path, do not believe any gender is 'dominiant'. It would be a pretty sad state of affairs if we women's sexuality were our only 'source of power', so to speak. I'm not sure if I'm even aware enough to have a sexuality, but I hope I'm still respected here on RF, even if I don't use it.
Thought I'd resuscitate this thread.

I must comment on the Odin/Thor thing, though.

The gods Odin and Thor represent two diverse cultures. Odin represents the culture of privilege and classism, Thor represents the working man, the common man.

Even at that, there is a mystery. Odin seems a tormented soul. In my heart of hearts I believe that Odin represents a homosexual god who is obligated, for the sake of whatever, to impregnate various and sundry females to produce sons who will figure as heroes in the ongoing struggle, possibly against evil, as personified by Loki, but at the same time there is a definite impression that Odin and Loki are the same. Odin seems happiest when he and Loki go off roustering together.

Thor represents to me the plain-spoken, blunt sort of fellow you'd like as a friend. You would certainly like to have him on your side.

One of my favorite Norse myths is the rescue of the goddess Frejya. Now, Freyja has a deservedly slutty reputation. The lass sleeps around. Nonetheless, she has standards and she refuses to be wed to the ugly giant Thrymm but Loki has stolen Thor's precious hammer and Thrymm holds it for ransom, "I marry beautiful Freya or I keep the hammer." A hilarious bit of theatre ensues, ending bloodily, I am sad to say but, hmmm, you might want to take a look at:

http://www.pjtss.net/library/leslie/slape08.htm
 

c0da

Active Member
Just as woman have been fighting to regain equality, if not dominance, over the last few decades, so too did the men of the ancient middle east.

Oh No! So what your saying is, soon all I, and other males, will be useful for is my strength and sexuality?

I have neither! Am I going to be exterminated?
 

DakotaGypsy

Active Member
Are you cute? And, can you sing?

Sorry, just joking. I don't see why a man has to be burly and strong. It just isn't possible for all men to be like that.

And why a man is supposed to a manly stud monkey I shall never understand. Oooh, gad, the despair of those men when the studliness ages and dies.

That's why I have difficulty reading Ernest Hemingway.
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
I Corinthians 7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
7:2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
7:3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
7:4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
7:5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
7:6 But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.
Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

I like these verses from the new testament, they say to love each other like you love yourself, and to have sex with each other except for certain times, but then quickly have sex again so you won't be tempted and such. But mainly, we are to love each other, as equals, perhaps we may have different roles, (I know a man who stays at home while his wife works, as she has the degree and the high pay), but we are still to love each other as we love ourselves and as Christ loved the Church and gave His life for it. Just my thots.
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
Oops, sorry, the verses were from I Cor. 7, and the others from Ephesians chapter 5. I will edit the above, sry.
 

Ody

Well-Known Member
Aqualung said:
Judaism did not "invent" patriarchal society. Have you ever read anything about the ancient greeks or anything along those lines?

Or the canaanites, or egyptians...
 

moonmayden85

New Member
I think that women and men both have thier sexuality to thank for the whole human race still existing! This is how I think of it... before Eve "ate the apple" or however we gained our knowledge and sense of right and wrong, we were designed as animals... although more advanced than the rest of the animals. Animals have a very simple life... eat, sleep, reproduce. The males are often stronger and protect and provide for the female. The female was made to bear the offspring. Females are usually the more nurturing of the sexes... probably because of the simple fact that they were designed to care and raise the offspring. There is no dominant sex and men wanting sex is not really a weakness. It's just an instinct. We started out as animals and deep down we still are, even though we have morals and the like now. I'm not really sure what caused the switch over from female to male dominance in society, but I do believe that a lot of things in the Bible were written by men who were less than eager for us girls to be in the power seat again! I take the Bible with a grain of salt... I realize that not every word in the Bible is directly from God. Men had a big part in it. And men (and ladies, too!) make stupid comments and mistakes. It's part of being human!
 
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