Yeah. That is totally what's going on with our discussion of agents' involvement in moral realism. Good eye. But the cool thing is, we don't have to debate about demarcation. All we need to do is understand what the other means when demarcating, rather than, one of us insisting on the model we're using.
Let’s hope I can keep track.
In terms of models, can my model be flawed? If there is some fundamental error in the model, won’t that affect the model's utility?
In some conversations, demarcation is a salient and divisive issue (and ought to be, because it concerns a fundamental difference). But not in this conversation. That's because you and I (I don't believe) differ essentially in what we consider to objective or subjective as far as human experience goes.
Where I think our issue lies is that I only take issue with the validity of subjectivity when it results in the expression of beliefs. That is, I don't like truth claims that are perspective-dependent being considered "true" in some way. I don't like "truth" being dirtied by opinion. Truth concerns facts, not opinions. And even the word "fact" confuses the matter.
What is a fact? There are two definitions that we use for the word "fact" at the same time. And when we start writing premises using the word fact, if we don't clarify what we mean, we end up equivocating.
1) A fact is something that is to be differentiated from opinion. A fact is a belief. (Opinions are also beliefs.) But opinions are perspective-dependent. Facts are true irrespective of one's perspective.
2) A fact something that is demonstrably true. (ie. "It is a scientific fact that smoking causes cancer.) This definition doesn't contrast with opinion. It contrasts with things that are demonstrably false (ie. "Smoking doesn't cause cancer.")
1 and 2 are different things. And I think our demarcation problem lies in the difference between the two. When I criticize moral realism, I very much have 1 in mind. Opinions ought not enter into the truth-value of moral claims. I do not mean anything near #2 when I use the term "moral fact."
But what's the big difference between 1 and 2? Well, a fact, according to definition 1, could be false. Here is an example fact (and keep definition 1 in mind): "I have an apple tree in my yard." I actually DO have an apple tree in my yard. (Crab apples. They are sour and nasty, barely worth eating.) But what if I turned out to be wrong? Maybe my neighbor came over and cut down my apple tree and took it away without my knowing. In that case, when I say "there is an apple tree in my yard" I am still expressing a fact according to definition 1-- because me being wrong doesn't make it a matter of opinion. But (according to definition 2) I have NOT stated a fact.
If moral realism is true, that doesn't mean that *anyone* has any of the moral facts correct (as per definition 2)... but it does mean that it is (potentially) possible to make objectively true determinations about morality.
Got it. You will be using the label ‘fact’ in two separate ways.
What I will do, so that I can try and keep track, is replace the label ‘fact’ in definition 1 with the label ‘fact assertion’. I will reserve my use of the label ‘fact’ to the second definition you provided. This will help me distinguish between something that may be right or wrong and something that is to be taken as an objective truth.
You already know what cognitivism is.
Our brains produce in us "cognitions" (ie. ideas, beliefs, and thoughts)... but they also produce emotions and sensations (happiness, anger, pain, and bliss). A cognitivist thinks moral claims have to do with cognitions (specifically beliefs). A non-cognitivist sees moral claims as imperatives, feelings, or something else. In other words, not belief-related. Rather, something related to our desires, emotions, or something else our brain does... but not cognitions or beliefs.
This is kind of like the Nature vs Nurture debate. Why, as in the case of nature/nurture, cannot our sense of morals be both cognitive and emotional? Is there a word for that?
Nope. Nothing to do with the supernatural. "Non-natural" in the sense that the Pythagorean theorem is not a statement about a specific thing in nature. The pythagorean theorem is true whether a triangular shaped thing exists or not. On the hand, "Mars is further from the sun than the Earth" is a natural fact. The latter is true synthetically (and I love that you use that term so precisely... your understanding of that concept will help us see eye to eye on this, I think).
I don't think that moral facts are natural facts. I think they are more like the Pythagorean theorem. That's all that is meant by non-naturalism. No ectoplasm required.
Got it. No God sourced morals under the non-natural category. Do morals sourced from the gods fall on the chart anywhere, or are alternate metaphysical planes disregarded?
So it appears then non-natural equates to the purely analytical. If this is the case, it would match my view in that any analytic system is a man-made, man-invented system, and therefore subjective. I think I didn't make it this far in the chart because when they ask "Are those beliefs sometimes true?", my assumption was that the criteria was objectively true. If sometimes true includes analytic truths, then I would have ended up here as well. It just wasn't clear, and I think there is a distinction.
We 100% agree on this. But I do want to clarify one thing.
We can make objective determinations about subjective events, right? We can say that when a person puts their hand on the stove that they experience pain, right? But pain is a subjective experience. But that doesn't make statements involving pain necessarily subjective.
Exactly. The heat of the stove is an objective phenomenon as well as the stove, the hand, the neurochemical reaction in the nerves as a result of the increased temperature, all objective occurrences.
A psychologist may discover that some phenomenon causes depression. But that doesn't mean that her observation is subjective... even though it is a claim ABOUT the subjective. What if she claims that experiences of anger lead to greater instances of violence? (That is, her claim is, the more angry people are, the more prone they are to violence.) That claim involves subjective experience (anger)... but the whole claim nonetheless espouses an objective truth.
Yep. I’m with you. I agree. I know in your example we are to assume her claim has already gone through the gauntlet of being thoroughly tested, and that’s why it is considered objective. I just want to reiterate the fact that her claim would not be considered objective before testing, nor after the first experiment, even if it seemed intuitively obvious. Objectivity in science is expressed in degrees of confidence and not in absolutes. Fact in science is only an observation that is repeatedly confirmed to the extent that for all practical purposes it is accepted as “true”. Since we do not have a complete understanding of the Domain we call “the real world” nor its full extent, we never really “know” know? Ya know?
So the short answer is, a claim is considered objectively true so long as it is demonstrated to be so, that it remains synthetic to the real world. Once it doesn’t, it's not. That's the best we can do.
That's the kind of way I approach ethics, and (as far as demarcation goes) I think that's why I think it's an objective issue while you want to call it subjective.
Do I have you pegged wrong?
If you consider Moral systems as an analytic Domain in the same way that Language is an analytic Domain, and Mathematics is an analytic Domain, and within the Moral Domain there exists moral facts, then I am perfectly fine with that. What does that mean, however, in regard to real life? For example, we can use words to create concepts that are impossible to map to the real world, purely imaginary and impossible to exist. Likewise, we can use mathematics to describe mathematical concepts that cannot be mapped to the real world. Analytic systems that involve human behavior only apply to the real world to the extent agents buy into, and conform to the analytic system. The elements of the Moral Domain do not map to anything in the real world, the objectivity is in the real world behavioral effects that result from attitudes towards the moral system.
This line of thought leads me to ask where the terms ‘objective’ and ‘subjective’ are to be used. For example, how do those terms apply to the analytic Domain of Mathematics? I think we can say that 1+1=2 is a mathematical fact, can we say it is an objective fact? Are the axioms upon which Mathematics is built subjective? If the framework is subjective, is everything derived from the subjective framework to be considered subjective as well, including 1+1=2?
Perhaps ‘objective’ should be reserved to reference anything outside of thought that has spatio-temporal extension in the physical world. That which is, absent of thought, is objective. All thought would therefore be subjective. Subjective thought can represent or map to the objective, but must be demonstrated to do so, to be synthetic subjective thoughts ( or would it be subjective synthetic thoughts?).
Where do your thoughts lie on this?