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Subjective problems with philosophies on Morals and ethic such as Moral Tralism

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Yeah. That is totally what's going on with our discussion of agents' involvement in moral realism. Good eye. But the cool thing is, we don't have to debate about demarcation. All we need to do is understand what the other means when demarcating, rather than, one of us insisting on the model we're using.

Let’s hope I can keep track. :)

In terms of models, can my model be flawed? If there is some fundamental error in the model, won’t that affect the model's utility?

In some conversations, demarcation is a salient and divisive issue (and ought to be, because it concerns a fundamental difference). But not in this conversation. That's because you and I (I don't believe) differ essentially in what we consider to objective or subjective as far as human experience goes.

Where I think our issue lies is that I only take issue with the validity of subjectivity when it results in the expression of beliefs. That is, I don't like truth claims that are perspective-dependent being considered "true" in some way. I don't like "truth" being dirtied by opinion. Truth concerns facts, not opinions. And even the word "fact" confuses the matter.

What is a fact? There are two definitions that we use for the word "fact" at the same time. And when we start writing premises using the word fact, if we don't clarify what we mean, we end up equivocating.

1) A fact is something that is to be differentiated from opinion. A fact is a belief. (Opinions are also beliefs.) But opinions are perspective-dependent. Facts are true irrespective of one's perspective.

2) A fact something that is demonstrably true. (ie. "It is a scientific fact that smoking causes cancer.) This definition doesn't contrast with opinion. It contrasts with things that are demonstrably false (ie. "Smoking doesn't cause cancer.")

1 and 2 are different things. And I think our demarcation problem lies in the difference between the two. When I criticize moral realism, I very much have 1 in mind. Opinions ought not enter into the truth-value of moral claims. I do not mean anything near #2 when I use the term "moral fact."

But what's the big difference between 1 and 2? Well, a fact, according to definition 1, could be false. Here is an example fact (and keep definition 1 in mind): "I have an apple tree in my yard." I actually DO have an apple tree in my yard. (Crab apples. They are sour and nasty, barely worth eating.) But what if I turned out to be wrong? Maybe my neighbor came over and cut down my apple tree and took it away without my knowing. In that case, when I say "there is an apple tree in my yard" I am still expressing a fact according to definition 1-- because me being wrong doesn't make it a matter of opinion. But (according to definition 2) I have NOT stated a fact.

If moral realism is true, that doesn't mean that *anyone* has any of the moral facts correct (as per definition 2)... but it does mean that it is (potentially) possible to make objectively true determinations about morality.

Got it. You will be using the label ‘fact’ in two separate ways.

What I will do, so that I can try and keep track, is replace the label ‘fact’ in definition 1 with the label ‘fact assertion’. I will reserve my use of the label ‘fact’ to the second definition you provided. This will help me distinguish between something that may be right or wrong and something that is to be taken as an objective truth.

You already know what cognitivism is.

Our brains produce in us "cognitions" (ie. ideas, beliefs, and thoughts)... but they also produce emotions and sensations (happiness, anger, pain, and bliss). A cognitivist thinks moral claims have to do with cognitions (specifically beliefs). A non-cognitivist sees moral claims as imperatives, feelings, or something else. In other words, not belief-related. Rather, something related to our desires, emotions, or something else our brain does... but not cognitions or beliefs.

This is kind of like the Nature vs Nurture debate. Why, as in the case of nature/nurture, cannot our sense of morals be both cognitive and emotional? Is there a word for that?

Nope. Nothing to do with the supernatural. "Non-natural" in the sense that the Pythagorean theorem is not a statement about a specific thing in nature. The pythagorean theorem is true whether a triangular shaped thing exists or not. On the hand, "Mars is further from the sun than the Earth" is a natural fact. The latter is true synthetically (and I love that you use that term so precisely... your understanding of that concept will help us see eye to eye on this, I think).

I don't think that moral facts are natural facts. I think they are more like the Pythagorean theorem. That's all that is meant by non-naturalism. No ectoplasm required.

Got it. No God sourced morals under the non-natural category. :) Do morals sourced from the gods fall on the chart anywhere, or are alternate metaphysical planes disregarded?

So it appears then non-natural equates to the purely analytical. If this is the case, it would match my view in that any analytic system is a man-made, man-invented system, and therefore subjective. I think I didn't make it this far in the chart because when they ask "Are those beliefs sometimes true?", my assumption was that the criteria was objectively true. If sometimes true includes analytic truths, then I would have ended up here as well. It just wasn't clear, and I think there is a distinction.

We 100% agree on this. But I do want to clarify one thing.
We can make objective determinations about subjective events, right? We can say that when a person puts their hand on the stove that they experience pain, right? But pain is a subjective experience. But that doesn't make statements involving pain necessarily subjective.

Exactly. The heat of the stove is an objective phenomenon as well as the stove, the hand, the neurochemical reaction in the nerves as a result of the increased temperature, all objective occurrences.

A psychologist may discover that some phenomenon causes depression. But that doesn't mean that her observation is subjective... even though it is a claim ABOUT the subjective. What if she claims that experiences of anger lead to greater instances of violence? (That is, her claim is, the more angry people are, the more prone they are to violence.) That claim involves subjective experience (anger)... but the whole claim nonetheless espouses an objective truth.

Yep. I’m with you. I agree. I know in your example we are to assume her claim has already gone through the gauntlet of being thoroughly tested, and that’s why it is considered objective. I just want to reiterate the fact that her claim would not be considered objective before testing, nor after the first experiment, even if it seemed intuitively obvious. Objectivity in science is expressed in degrees of confidence and not in absolutes. Fact in science is only an observation that is repeatedly confirmed to the extent that for all practical purposes it is accepted as “true”. Since we do not have a complete understanding of the Domain we call “the real world” nor its full extent, we never really “know” know? Ya know?

So the short answer is, a claim is considered objectively true so long as it is demonstrated to be so, that it remains synthetic to the real world. Once it doesn’t, it's not. That's the best we can do.

That's the kind of way I approach ethics, and (as far as demarcation goes) I think that's why I think it's an objective issue while you want to call it subjective.
Do I have you pegged wrong?

If you consider Moral systems as an analytic Domain in the same way that Language is an analytic Domain, and Mathematics is an analytic Domain, and within the Moral Domain there exists moral facts, then I am perfectly fine with that. What does that mean, however, in regard to real life? For example, we can use words to create concepts that are impossible to map to the real world, purely imaginary and impossible to exist. Likewise, we can use mathematics to describe mathematical concepts that cannot be mapped to the real world. Analytic systems that involve human behavior only apply to the real world to the extent agents buy into, and conform to the analytic system. The elements of the Moral Domain do not map to anything in the real world, the objectivity is in the real world behavioral effects that result from attitudes towards the moral system.

This line of thought leads me to ask where the terms ‘objective’ and ‘subjective’ are to be used. For example, how do those terms apply to the analytic Domain of Mathematics? I think we can say that 1+1=2 is a mathematical fact, can we say it is an objective fact? Are the axioms upon which Mathematics is built subjective? If the framework is subjective, is everything derived from the subjective framework to be considered subjective as well, including 1+1=2?

Perhaps ‘objective’ should be reserved to reference anything outside of thought that has spatio-temporal extension in the physical world. That which is, absent of thought, is objective. All thought would therefore be subjective. Subjective thought can represent or map to the objective, but must be demonstrated to do so, to be synthetic subjective thoughts ( or would it be subjective synthetic thoughts?).

Where do your thoughts lie on this?
 

vulcanlogician

Well-Known Member
Got it. You will be using the label ‘fact’ in two separate ways.

What I will do, so that I can try and keep track, is replace the label ‘fact’ in definition 1 with the label ‘fact assertion’. I will reserve my use of the label ‘fact’ to the second definition you provided. This will help me distinguish between something that may be right or wrong and something that is to be taken as an objective truth.

Sure. My point was, "fact" has two different definitions in common usage. I'm primarily concerned with #1. But #2 is also important once you discern if something is a #1 type of fact or not.

This is kind of like the Nature vs Nurture debate. Why, as in the case of nature/nurture, cannot our sense of morals be both cognitive and emotional? Is there a word for that?

Ethicists aren't trying to figure out "where ethics comes from as far as the human brain goes." That's something a psychologist or a neuroscientist might be interested in.

Moral nihilists are all asserting that (in one way or another)-- no moral judgment can be true. A non-cognitivist claims that moral judgments aren't beliefs. If that's the case--well-- then the matter is settled. Nihilism is true.

Only beliefs can be true or false. So, if moral judgments AREN'T beliefs then we can all go home. The matter is settled: no moral proposition can be true. Propositions (or theories) can also be true or false... but propositions are POTENTIAL beliefs and so still fall under the cognitivist umbrella. The non-cognitivist want to nip all this moral talk in the bud by asserting that moral judgments aren't even beliefs at all... but emotions, imperatives, or something else. If they are right, then moral nihilism MUST be the case.

One form of moral nihilist (the error theorist) thinks that moral judgments ARE beliefs. But these beliefs can't be true. There are a number of strategies they use to argue this. I won't get into them here. Long story short, if moral judgments aren't even beliefs, we don't even have to bother with error theory. Moral nihilism is the obvious answer.

It's possible that emotion can enter into some people's moral judgments. (And, in practice, this happens a lot). But a moral realist doesn't regard emotion-based moral judgments as valid. If we're going to do genuine ethics, we need to be completely logical from start to finish. If someone is using emotion to come to conclusions about ethics, that's not good philosophy.

Got it. No God sourced morals under the non-natural category. :) Do morals sourced from the gods fall on the chart anywhere, or are alternate metaphysical planes disregarded?

God/religion based moral theories do not appear on the chart.

Divine Command Theory is the only theory I know of. It claims that an act is only immoral if god forbids it, and only moral if God requires it. Bad theory. Even if God exists.

Exactly. The heat of the stove is an objective phenomenon as well as the stove, the hand, the neurochemical reaction in the nerves as a result of the increased temperature, all objective occurrences.

Yeah. Because all those things are physical occurrences, and they invariably lead to pain... many ethicists consider pain to be a natural event. Even though it is experienced subjectively.

I don't think that ethical theories that deal with pain are necessarily subjective. Because (as you point out) everything about the experience of pain come about due to objective (physical) phenomena.

Yep. I’m with you. I agree. I know in your example we are to assume her claim has already gone through the gauntlet of being thoroughly tested, and that’s why it is considered objective.

Sure. I don't need to pass any unproven premises under the radar.

The elements of the Moral Domain do not map to anything in the real world, the objectivity is in the real world behavioral effects that result from attitudes towards the moral system.

Some ethical systems, like hedonism, make reference to real world events... pain/suffering... pleasure/happiness... etc. A hedonist takes it as axiomatic that pain is bad and pleasure is good. This needn't refer only to physical pleasure but also mental states (such as happiness/contentment) also qualify as natural events (to me and other hedonists) because they are explicable by brain activity. I understand you might have objections as far as this goes, but I'm happy to give (what I consider) pretty good responses if you'd like to work out any reservations you may have about such a view.

This line of thought leads me to ask where the terms ‘objective’ and ‘subjective’ are to be used. For example, how do those terms apply to the analytic Domain of Mathematics? I think we can say that 1+1=2 is a mathematical fact, can we say it is an objective fact?

Yes.

Perhaps ‘objective’ should be reserved to reference anything outside of thought that has spatio-temporal extension in the physical world. That which is, absent of thought, is objective. All thought would therefore be subjective. Subjective thought can represent or map to the objective, but must be demonstrated to do so, to be synthetic subjective thoughts ( or would it be subjective synthetic thoughts?).

Where do your thoughts lie on this?

I think anything that is caused by physical things is physical. That means (as far as I can tell) things like states of pain and thoughts are ultimately physical in nature. However, and here we come back to cognitivism... the beliefs and attitudes that come about due to these states and thoughts can be subjective.

Put another way, when someone formulates an opinion, that opinion is a physical thing that happens in the universe (an event). However, the CONTENTS of that opinion (ie. what a cognitivist looks at) are subjective.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Yeah. That is totally what's going on with our discussion of agents' involvement in moral realism. Good eye. But the cool thing is, we don't have to debate about demarcation. All we need to do is understand what the other means when demarcating, rather than, one of us insisting on the model we're using.

In some conversations, demarcation is a salient and divisive issue (and ought to be, because it concerns a fundamental difference). But not in this conversation. That's because you and I (I don't believe) differ essentially in what we consider to objective or subjective as far as human experience goes.

Where I think our issue lies is that I only take issue with the validity of subjectivity when it results in the expression of beliefs. That is, I don't like truth claims that are perspective-dependent being considered "true" in some way. I don't like "truth" being dirtied by opinion. Truth concerns facts, not opinions. And even the word "fact" confuses the matter.

What is a fact? There are two definitions that we use for the word "fact" at the same time. And when we start writing premises using the word fact, if we don't clarify what we mean, we end up equivocating.

1) A fact is something that is to be differentiated from opinion. A fact is a belief. (Opinions are also beliefs.) But opinions are perspective-dependent. Facts are true irrespective of one's perspective.

2) A fact something that is demonstrably true. (ie. "It is a scientific fact that smoking causes cancer.) This definition doesn't contrast with opinion. It contrasts with things that are demonstrably false (ie. "Smoking doesn't cause cancer.")

1 and 2 are different things. And I think our demarcation problem lies in the difference between the two. When I criticize moral realism, I very much have 1 in mind. Opinions ought not enter into the truth-value of moral claims. I do not mean anything near #2 when I use the term "moral fact."

But what's the big difference between 1 and 2? Well, a fact, according to definition 1, could be false. Here is an example fact (and keep definition 1 in mind): "I have an apple tree in my yard." I actually DO have an apple tree in my yard. (Crab apples. They are sour and nasty, barely worth eating.) But what if I turned out to be wrong? Maybe my neighbor came over and cut down my apple tree and took it away without my knowing. In that case, when I say "there is an apple tree in my yard" I am still expressing a fact according to definition 1-- because me being wrong doesn't make it a matter of opinion. But (according to definition 2) I have NOT stated a fact.

If moral realism is true, that doesn't mean that *anyone* has any of the moral facts correct (as per definition 2)... but it does mean that it is (potentially) possible to make objectively true determinations about morality.



You already know what cognitivism is.

Our brains produce in us "cognitions" (ie. ideas, beliefs, and thoughts)... but they also produce emotions and sensations (happiness, anger, pain, and bliss). A cognitivist thinks moral claims have to do with cognitions (specifically beliefs). A non-cognitivist sees moral claims as imperatives, feelings, or something else. In other words, not belief-related. Rather, something related to our desires, emotions, or something else our brain does... but not cognitions or beliefs.



I think error theory is hands down the strongest anti-realist theory. Head and shoulders above the competition.



Nope. Nothing to do with the supernatural. "Non-natural" in the sense that the Pythagorean theorem is not a statement about a specific thing in nature. The pythagorean theorem is true whether a triangular shaped thing exists or not. On the hand, "Mars is further from the sun than the Earth" is a natural fact. The latter is true synthetically (and I love that you use that term so precisely... your understanding of that concept will help us see eye to eye on this, I think).

I don't think that moral facts are natural facts. I think they are more like the Pythagorean theorem. That's all that is meant by non-naturalism. No ectoplasm required.



We 100% agree on this. But I do want to clarify one thing.

We can make objective determinations about subjective events, right? We can say that when a person puts their hand on the stove that they experience pain, right? But pain is a subjective experience. But that doesn't make statements involving pain necessarily subjective.

A psychologist may discover that some phenomenon causes depression. But that doesn't mean that her observation is subjective... even though it is a claim ABOUT the subjective. What if she claims that experiences of anger lead to greater instances of violence? (That is, her claim is, the more angry people are, the more prone they are to violence.) That claim involves subjective experience (anger)... but the whole claim nonetheless espouses an objective truth.

That's the kind of way I approach ethics, and (as far as demarcation goes) I think that's why I think it's an objective issue while you want to call it subjective.

Do I have you pegged wrong?

Well, if you can express a non-natural fact, that is not subjective, as objective as describing something without personal interpretation, then please give an example of that. All your examples with the tree, Mars and processes in a brain have been natural facts. Please describe an objective non-natural fact and not just claim it can be done. Do it.
 

vulcanlogician

Well-Known Member
Well, if you can express a non-natural fact, that is not subjective, as objective as describing something without personal interpretation, then please give an example of that. All your examples with the tree, Mars and processes in a brain have been natural facts. Please describe an objective non-natural fact and not just claim it can be done. Do it.

I did above. The pythagorean theorem.
 

vulcanlogician

Well-Known Member
es, you did. I missed that one. I stand corrected.
So I will try again, a non-natural non-formal abstract thinking, yet objective moral fact, please.

Well, you can't take formal abstract thinking away from me. I depend on that to formulate my arguments.

As for statement of a non-natural moral fact... it's a statement of a moral fact like we're all familiar with. Things like:

1) Theft is morally wrong. (Or at least some theft).
2) There is something wrong with rape.
3) "It was wrong of you to hurt her feelings like that."

We're all familiar with these sort of claims. The interesting bit comes about when you ask how or why these claims are true. After all, even claims about the mass of Jupiter (ie. natural facts) need to answer to the question of why Jupiter has such a mass and how we know it is so. But otherwise it comes in the form of "Jupiter's mass is 1.89813 × 10^27 kilograms." This is stated as a brute fact, but still requires justification and explanation. Moral facts (if they indeed exist and can be true) would be no different.

Interestingly, the moral naturalist wants to say moral facts ARE natural facts. The moral naturalist wants to say they are measurably true... that is, rape being bad for someone is measurable scientifically. This approach has its advantages and problems. I've outlined a basic argument for it in the spoiler below if you're interested (via quotation of an academic paper).

(1) A property P is genuine if it figures ineliminably in a good explanation of observed
phenomena.
(2) Moral properties figure ineliminably in good explanations of observed phenomena.
Therefore
(3) Moral properties are genuine.

The ability of putative moral properties to feature in good explanations is one perennially attractive argument in favour of the metaphysical claims of realism. The initially attractive thought is that moral properties earn their ontological rights in the same way as the metaphysically unproblematic properties of the natural and social sciences, namely by figuring in good explanatory theories. So just as, for example, a physicist may explain why an oil droplet stays suspended in an electro-magnetic field by citing its charge, or a social scientist may explain high levels of mental illness by citing income inequality, a ‘moral scientist’ may explain the growth of political protest movements or social instability by citing injustice. Likewise, just as an observer of the physicist may explain why he believes that the oil droplet is charged by citing the charge itself, and an observer of the sociologist may explain why she believes that income inequality exists by citing the inequality itself, an observer of the ‘moral scientist’ may explain why they believe that a situation is unjust by citing the injustice itself. In such cases, it appears that the instantiation of a moral property – injustice – is causally relevant in producing an effect – a political protest movement or moral judgement.

But I'm more interested in the non-natural approach, first formulated by G.E. Moore in 1900 in his Principia Ethica. (It's a short and interesting work, and not too challenging... a real eye-opener to an alternate view of ethics if you're interested). Moore's ethics (non-naturalism) is not without its issues. He famously used fallacious logic (circular reasoning) in his "open question argument." But even still, some philosophers have worked on non-naturalism's problems and tried to patch the holes so to speak. Like all other ethical theories (including relativism and nihilism) it is not without its problems.

The gist of Moore's ethics is that "good" is an irreducibly simple concept. It doesn't reduce ONLY to something like pleasure, desire satisfaction, or anything else. It is context dependent, but still objectively discernible to one who has the facts of the situation right. To Moore, the university you choose to go to, or the size to which you inflate your car tires are ethical decisions... even though we typically don't think of them that way.

There are plenty of interesting things to say about Moore-- the "good"/"good for" issue, intuitionism, and other problems. But the crux of his argument lies in "good" being an irreducible concept. By contrast, a hedonist would say that good IS a reducible concept (at least when we are talking about ethics). "Good" reduces to pleasure or happiness (to the hedonist). Moore doesn't disagree that "good" SOMETIMES reduces pleasure or happiness in ethical discussions, but he thinks the hedonist fails to recognize the whole of ethics. In his opinion they only recognize part of ethics, even though it is often a very substantial part. Also Moore is a utilitarian, if that means anything to you, but not a hedonistic utilitarian (as most utilitarians are); he is sometimes called an "ideal utilitarian."

TL;DR
Sorry for the deep dive if you weren't interested in all that. The plain answer to your question is listed in items 1-3 near the beginning of the post. But I suspected you'd want more explanation than that simple list.
 
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mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Well, you can't take formal abstract thinking away from me. I depend on that to formulate my arguments.

As for statement of a non-natural moral fact... it's a statement of a moral fact like we're all familiar with. Things like:

1) Theft is morally wrong. (Or at least some theft).
2) There is something wrong with rape.
3) "It was wrong of you to hurt her feelings like that."

...
1) is a tautology, like murder is wrong versus killing is wrong, which is not a tautology.
2) Rape and use for power is good. One for the warlords in the past was so successful that today 10% of Chinese males are male descendants from him.
3) Well, no. I don't like her and I don't care about her.

We are playing brain objectivism. You are objective for your brain and I am for my brain. If scientists checked our brains it would both be objective as processes in our respective brains. It is just that it is objective in both cases and not really subjective. Now what?
 

vulcanlogician

Well-Known Member
1) is a tautology, like murder is wrong versus killing is wrong, which is not a tautology.

Not at all. Someone might consider what Robin Hood does as (technically) theft. But at the same time view it as justified. I'd rather not get hung up on words. How words are defined has nothing to do with my point. Insert "take something that doesn't belong to you" in place of "theft" if you wish.

When I was a teenager, my younger stepsister came home with an arm full of ears of corn. She explained to my mother that she had found a corn field by the side of the road, where the corn was just sitting there waiting to be picked. She proposed making another trip back to the field to get some more.

My mother thought that what my stepsister did was wrong and drove her to the farm from whence she got the corn to return it. My mother thought there was something "wrong" with what my stepsister had done. But was there really? Did my mother make a mistake in her evaluation of human action? Was my mother's whole concept of "right and wrong" mistaken? THAT'S what we're talking about here. The difference between taking, stealing, and theft doesn't particularly interest me.

2) Rape and use for power is good.

Says who?

One for the warlords in the past was so successful that today 10% of Chinese males are male descendants from him.

So?

3) Well, no. I don't like her and I don't care about her.

Sure. That's a perfectly honest reply. But it says nothing about the status of moral facts. It merely expresses your motivations for doing what you did.

We are playing brain objectivism. You are objective for your brain and I am for my brain. If scientists checked our brains it would both be objective as processes in our respective brains. It is just that it is objective in both cases and not really subjective. Now what?

Our brains tell us all sorts of things. Presumably, some of those things are objective... others are subjective. We're trying to figure out which one moral judgments are.

If you assume from the outset that morality is subjective (ie. one of your premises/assumptions is that morality is subjective) then your conclusions on the matter will also reflect that. (But that's circular reasoning... which doesn't make your position incorrect ... but it DOES mean that you haven't sufficiently supported the conclusion that morality is subjective.

Another thing you may be hinting at is "universal subjectivism" (ie. the belief that ALL things are subjective-- or only true in relation to one another). I've said before that universal subjectivism is compelling. And if IT is true, then it follows that morality is also subjective.

BUT! If you are of the mind that some things are objective (like the fact that the moon circles the earth) and that other things are subjective, then it is yet to be determined where morality falls on that spectrum.
 
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mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
...


Sure. That's a perfectly honest reply. But it says nothing about the status of moral facts. It merely expresses your motivations for doing what you did.

...

Here is an as objective and universal fact as I can do it.
For all humans in gravity as relevant, for falling to the ground and hitting with a sufficiently high speed with a sufficiently short deacceleration, we will all die.
I.e. for a set of similar circumstances you get the same result.
Now if you want to question the assumptions that the universe is real, orderly and knowable, then we have left morality and it is another debate.

So the short dirty version is similar cases same result. That is the abstract formal case for objective as relevant here.

For morality I just have to do similar cases different result. That is all.
For all similar cases as for killing another human you get different results for it be right or wrong. That is it.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Sure. My point was, "fact" has two different definitions in common usage. I'm primarily concerned with #1. But #2 is also important once you discern if something is a #1 type of fact or not.

Understood. Common usage.

I don't think that ethical theories that deal with pain are necessarily subjective. Because (as you point out) everything about the experience of pain come about due to objective (physical) phenomena.

Agreed.

Some ethical systems, like hedonism, make reference to real world events... pain/suffering... pleasure/happiness... etc. A hedonist takes it as axiomatic that pain is bad and pleasure is good.
...
I understand you might have objections as far as this goes, but I'm happy to give (what I consider) pretty good responses if you'd like to work out any reservations you may have about such a view.

No reservations, actually. It would be my position that a mental state *is* a physical state.

[In reference to analytic facts being objective facts] Yes.

Good to know. I understand that this will be your approach. My reservations here would be possible confusion caused by the term ‘objective’ being used to describe both real world phenomena and analytic phenomena. Any analytic system or Domain is a human abstract construction and therefore subjective, in my opinion. For example, in the Domain that is the fictional world of the Harry Potter series, that Dementors exist is a fact in that world, but do we really want to call it an objective fact? In the Domain of Language, we may consider grammar rules as facts for a specific language Domain, say the English Language Domain, but do we think of those system specific facts as objective? Must they be what they are independent of what anyone thinks? I would say the same holds for Mathematics. Mathematics is another analytic system in which conventions are proposed, such as order of operations, and become rules within the Domain, but those rules are subjectively chosen and really only kept in light of their continued usefulness. Should things change, it may require adjustment or changes to the foundational axioms. Examples of such mathematical Domains would be Euclid’s axiomatic system and the Zermelo-Fraenkel axiomatic system.

Perhaps on my end I will use a convention of applying the adjective ‘analytic’ to differentiate if I feel it necessary. So for me, the phrase “objective fact” would reference a real world phenomenon while “analytic fact” would reference a fact derived from a specific analytic Domain.

I think anything that is caused by physical things is physical.
...
Put another way, when someone formulates an opinion, that opinion is a physical thing that happens in the universe (an event). However, the CONTENTS of that opinion (ie. what a cognitivist looks at) are subjective.

Sweet. Full agreement.

Ethicists aren't trying to figure out "where ethics comes from as far as the human brain goes." That's something a psychologist or a neuroscientist might be interested in.

This comment has me puzzled. Is the ethicist, in your opinion, uninterested in where ethics come from, or is it assumed they are a product of the brain, not fussed about the details, and instead, focused on inventing moral systems that they think will work best overall? Or is it that they discount the brain as a potential source of ethics and are focused elsewhere in search of the source of ethics?

Somehow I thought “Where ethics/morals come from” was a big part of moral philosophy.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Moral nihilists are all asserting that (in one way or another)-- no moral judgment can be true. A non-cognitivist claims that moral judgments aren't beliefs. If that's the case--well-- then the matter is settled. Nihilism is true.
...
It's possible that emotion can enter into some people's moral judgments. (And, in practice, this happens a lot). But a moral realist doesn't regard emotion-based moral judgments as valid. If we're going to do genuine ethics, we need to be completely logical from start to finish. If someone is using emotion to come to conclusions about ethics, that's not good philosophy.

That summarizes the nihilists.

Here would be my speculation. If we roll the clock back to the point of our pre-verbal ancestors, it seems reasonable to envision the expression of human behavior in that “state of nature” to be very similar to other apes, or even mammals in general. Interactions among group members would be governed by instinct and emotion. Such a state of near pure instinct/emotion would seem to correspond with what you have described above representing the position of the non-cognitivist nihilists. Your flow chart on whether moral judgements are beliefs shows several flavors of Non-cognitivism and it is not entirely clear to me whether one or all of those flavors attribute moral judgements to emotion/instinct. Be that as it may, do human beings still exist in that pre-verbal state of nature in terms of moral judgements? I would say no.

What has changed? I would next speculate that once we developed the abstraction of language, instinct/emotion could be translated into abstract thought, into a formal cognitive form. It would be the formal cognitive form that would be used by the individual in thought and communication about individual and group behavior (proto-ethics?). So however long ago this occurred, those early efforts of cognitively formalizing ethical feelings would correlate to the existing social conditions at the time. As language began to develop in complexity, each subsequent generation did not start this process of translating emotions/instincts into a formal cognitive form in a sterile environment, with a clean slate. Previous generations had already taken their crack at cognitively formalizing moral feelings, and these would get passed along and incorporated into the developing moral sense of the next generation in my view. Once those instincts/emotions were codified into abstract thought, those emotions/instincts morphed into belief that could then be shared and passed down, persisting beyond any one individual. As society evolved, so too did the shared ethical system of beliefs in order to meet the demands of the changing social conditions.

Where does all that leave us today? We are no longer “in a state of nature”. We have moved beyond that and operate within a cognitive social framework that contains beliefs we categorize as moral/ethical. Are we free of instinct/emotion? I would say no. It would be my further speculation that it still exerts its influence at the individual level in terms of how the applicable ethical system is internalized and interpreted by individuals. In this way, moral/ethical systems are both non-cognitive and cognitive. So to sum up, these systems were born out of non-cognition, morphed into cognitive form, and are still under non-cognitive influence.

So, as I continue to speculate, if moral and ethical systems now represent beliefs, the next question seems to be, “Can they be true?”. Here I would say that it depends. Are we talking objectively true or analytically true? If the question applies to a man-made ethical or moral system in its entirety, as a Domain if you will, then my speculative answer would be that it is complicated and I discuss a potential objective source for morals below. From a simplistic overarching nihilistic position, cosmos has no purpose etc, the answer on those grounds would be no. If, on the other hand, we are to evaluate a particular moral claim *within* a particular ethical Domain, then I would say yes, in that case, a belief can be judged as true or false, right or wrong, etc. by the standards set by that Domain. In this case, the moral claim would be evaluated against the analytic moral facts of the applicable moral system.

Given all my speculation above, let me see how it might apply to your “flowchart of fun”. :)

First question, “Do moral judgements express belief?” - Despite the origins of moral judgements in pure emotion/instinct, I think we must conclude that they express beliefs today. Again, as in the nature vs nurture debate, I think the reality is more complex than to view moral judgements as pure non-cognitive emotion vs pure cognitive belief. The reality is that emotion/instinct will always play a role in the expression of any moral belief system within a group or society.

If we say yes to the first question, that gets us to “Are those beliefs sometimes true?” Here it matters whether we are differentiating between objective truth or analytic truth at this point. If we are talking objective truth, I see some argument for the objective role of instinct in moral beliefs, but instinct can be suppressed or overridden to varying degrees. From the cosmological nihilist position the answer is probably no and that would get us to Error Theory on the chart. If we can consider both analytic and objective truths, we would say yes on the basis of analytic truth, which leads to the next question. Based on the remainder of the chart, I’m assuming “truth” here refers to either objective or analytic truth.

“Are those beliefs about facts that are constituted by something other than human opinion?” Here, I see another conundrum. My view above has moral facts constituted by both emotion/instinct and human opinion. It is not one or the other but both. Now, if we interpret the sentence to mean constituted by something other than “pure opinion” or “solely opinion”, that would provide an opportunity to continue. Otherwise we end here at “Judgment-Dependents theories”.
I think, in our modern society, cognitive opinion holds a stronger sway over bare emotion/instinct overall. I think it is a viable notion to consider moral analytic facts as true so long as there is sufficient buy-in within the group. This would make moral systems a political product, which I think fits in with what we observe today.

“Are those facts natural facts?” Here I would say yes if we have moved past the previous question. Emotions/instincts constitute natural facts and therefore brings us to the next question,

“Are there surface-level analytic connections between moral predicates and naturalistic predicates?” This seems to relate to my concept of formal cognitive forms. In other words, one can map (to a degree) analytic moral predicates to naturalistic emotional/instinctual predicates. Now, we have to appreciate the complexity of modern societies and how far we have evolved from the point of emergent language. The mapping isn’t clear cut, and one-to-one, but I think this relates back to my assertion that emotion/instinct still plays a role. An analytic moral claim would not be adopted as a belief if it clashed with an individual's emotional/instinctual makeup. So now, given my caveats, that would give me a yes here and results with me ending at Analytic Moral Functionalism. :)

If my speculations are accurate and emotion/instinct are foundational for any moral system and play a continuing role in the acceptance of moral beliefs and interpretation of moral claims, where does that leave us in terms of moral nihilism and the subjective/objective nature of moral claims? I think we both agree that emotional states and instincts are objective phenomena. I think we might also agree that, although they are objective phenomena, their expression varies by individual for complex reasons, and on the individual level, such expression would seem purely subjective. I do think, however, that as with other biological systems, such as in the senses, there seem to be predictable ranges of expression when controlling for variables. Does this mean we might consider the instinctual expression of a group as a whole becoming more of an objective phenomenon and less subjective? Perhaps. Natural instinct then, would provide an objective source for shared generalized moral attitudes separate from opinion or cognitive belief alone. Can moral attitudes be considered to be true or false in relation to generalized instinctual programming? Is this sufficient to defeat moral nihilism? I think since we have evolved socially well beyond our natural instinctual programing, we simply have to accept the complex hybrid system we have evolved into. We should not necessarily feel compelled or restricted to conform to instinct, but at the same time, for any moral system to function, it cannot so conflict with instinctual sensibility such that it would never be followed. Given humanity’s current level of awareness, this puts humanity well within the driver's seat in terms of moving beyond instinct and developing well-reasoned analytic ethical systems that meet the high complexity of modern societies. Moral facts might no longer be considered facts, as such, rather, they might be considered to be moral agreements. This, then, would be the role of the ethicist professional, in my opinion, to devise ethical systems compatible with our instinctual nature yet designed for the complex modern society, meeting to the greatest extent practicable, the needs of societal members and the overall health and wellbeing of society as a whole.

Where might all this fall on your moral realism, relativism, nihilism philosophical scale? Or is it something outside of that scale?
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
As for statement of a non-natural moral fact... it's a statement of a moral fact like we're all familiar with. Things like:

1) Theft is morally wrong. (Or at least some theft).
2) There is something wrong with rape.
3) "It was wrong of you to hurt her feelings like that."

We're all familiar with these sort of claims. The interesting bit comes about when you ask how or why these claims are true. After all, even claims about the mass of Jupiter (ie. natural facts) need to answer to the question of why Jupiter has such a mass and how we know it is so. But otherwise it comes in the form of "Jupiter's mass is 1.89813 × 10^27 kilograms." This is stated as a brute fact, but still requires justification and explanation. Moral facts (if they indeed exist and can be true) would be no different.

My mother thought that what my stepsister did was wrong and drove her to the farm from whence she got the corn to return it. My mother thought there was something "wrong" with what my stepsister had done. But was there really? Did my mother make a mistake in her evaluation of human action? Was my mother's whole concept of "right and wrong" mistaken? THAT'S what we're talking about here. The difference between taking, stealing, and theft doesn't particularly interest me.

To what extent would you say these "non-natural moral facts" are the result of millennia of socialization? What would your expectation be if you could raise a group of people without any of the socialization that is inescapable in the real world? I think it would be literally impossible since you could not raise an infant through childhood without any external support or interaction without causing severe mental issues as has been shown in primate studies. But that fact alone is telling. What if one could create realistic androids to raise the children and program the androids to socialize a wide variety of 'social norms" and expectations. Could taking from another be socialized as acceptable? Could hurting others feelings be socialized a de rigueur behavior? What about rape? Could the child be socialized such that the concept did not even exist?

Would the non-natural moral facts you list have to persist such sterile counter-programming to be considered as such?
 

vulcanlogician

Well-Known Member
Good to know. I understand that this will be your approach. My reservations here would be possible confusion caused by the term ‘objective’ being used to describe both real world phenomena and analytic phenomena. Any analytic system or Domain is a human abstract construction and therefore subjective, in my opinion. For example, in the Domain that is the fictional world of the Harry Potter series, that Dementors exist is a fact in that world, but do we really want to call it an objective fact? In the Domain of Language, we may consider grammar rules as facts for a specific language Domain, say the English Language Domain, but do we think of those system specific facts as objective? Must they be what they are independent of what anyone thinks? I would say the same holds for Mathematics. Mathematics is another analytic system in which conventions are proposed, such as order of operations, and become rules within the Domain, but those rules are subjectively chosen and really only kept in light of their continued usefulness. Should things change, it may require adjustment or changes to the foundational axioms. Examples of such mathematical Domains would be Euclid’s axiomatic system and the Zermelo-Fraenkel axiomatic system.

Perhaps on my end I will use a convention of applying the adjective ‘analytic’ to differentiate if I feel it necessary. So for me, the phrase “objective fact” would reference a real world phenomenon while “analytic fact” would reference a fact derived from a specific analytic Domain.

I think this is the juiciest bit from all that you've said. I plan to respond to other things, but I feel I need to clarify my positions here first.

When I propose that moral judgments can be "objective," I simply mean as objective as math or as objective as science. Insofar as math may be (ultimately) not objective, then it would follow that morality also fails to be objective.

But I'm hesitant to lump mathematics in with, say, the goings-on at Hogwarts. I brought up the Pythagorean theorem before. The Pythagorean theorem describes hypothetical right triangles that may not even exist. But what it says about right triangles applies to all right-triangle-shaped things that exist in the universe, both natural and artificial. In that sense, A^2+B^2=C^2 is objectively true.

Perhaps on my end I will use a convention of applying the adjective ‘analytic’ to differentiate if I feel it necessary. So for me, the phrase “objective fact” would reference a real world phenomenon while “analytic fact” would reference a fact derived from a specific analytic Domain.

But objective facts can be both analytic or synthetic. We both agree that science gives us an increasingly more and more accurate picture of the world. We both agree that "scientific facts" like "Mars is further from the sun than the Earth" are true. And they are true regardless of what people think.

But, if you look at things, like how scientists arrived at conclusions about gravity and such, you're gonna find a WHOLE LOTTA mathematics underpinning those theories. If math is subjective, then it follows that science is also subjective. And I don't think either of us wants to say that. Furthermore, your notion that we keep mathematics around only because it is useful for us, could also be leveled at science. This line of thinking, if followed to its end, winds up at a kind of "universal relativism." And, as I said before, my defense of moral objectivism can only hold water in a reality that assumes some kind of Platonic Realism (ie. that there is one objective reality that we all make reference to, and that math and science help us understand that reality). If Platonic Realism of this kind is false, then I have no grounds to argue for moral objectivity, and I admit as much.

In mathematics, as well as in philosophy, axioms are not "subjectively chosen." They are proposed as self-evident truths. For example, Euclid's axiom that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. This is not a matter of opinion. Nor is it the product of a given person's "deciding" or "choosing" to see things that way. Furthermore, there are no underlying reasons or logical arguments that this is so. It is simply self-evidently true. It is impossible to see it otherwise, hence it is axiomatically true.

Now it complicates matters to bring in things like non-Euclidean geometry, wherein the axiom about straight lines is not evident. So, as it turns out Euclid's axiom is not as universal as Euclid took it to be. But it does not thereby become subjective. The axiom simply pertains only to Euclidean space. But, within the paradigm of Euclidean space, it is very much a self-evident truth, and it remains universal in the sense that it is true of all Euclidean space.

Whether or not numbers are real, or if mathematics is invented or discovered is a hotly debated topic. The fact that we haven't figured it out yet I don't think trips us up too much in our discussion about ethics. We can assume that mathematics and science are "objective enough" to make truth-claims that apply to the world. The video below is roughly five minutes long and makes some really salient points about how mathematics seems to be "embedded" in the natural world in the sense that it can (sometimes accidentally) reveal truths about the physical world... even though it could be reasonably argued (by some) that it is nothing more than a human construct. If morality even comes close to the kind of tenuous "objectivity" that math enjoys, I'd feel comfortable calling myself a moral realist.




(More to come. I need time to reply to some of your other points.)
 

vulcanlogician

Well-Known Member
Here is an as objective and universal fact as I can do it.
For all humans in gravity as relevant, for falling to the ground and hitting with a sufficiently high speed with a sufficiently short deacceleration, we will all die.
I.e. for a set of similar circumstances you get the same result.
Now if you want to question the assumptions that the universe is real, orderly and knowable, then we have left morality and it is another debate.

So the short dirty version is similar cases same result. That is the abstract formal case for objective as relevant here.

For morality I just have to do similar cases different result. That is all.
For all similar cases as for killing another human you get different results for it be right or wrong. That is it.

So, if we are taking shots in the dark about whether killing is good or bad, you have different results for whether it is right or wrong. So, to answer your specific line of criticisms, I would feel more comfortable defending hedonistic utilitarianism to demonstrate how a moral theory can help us make objective and consistent moral judgments.

In case you aren't familiar, hedonistic utilitarianism (afterward "hedonism") is based on good/bad (valuation)-- which are my favorite kinds of ethical theories. (By contrast, there is deontology which is based on duty... but I don't really enjoy defending such theories.) A hedonist asks how you can do good for someone or how it might be determined that an action that you take might be considered wrong or immoral. Well, to the hedonist, such a question is easy to answer: it is good when you create pleasure, happiness, joy, or contentment in other beings, and it is bad when you cause suffering, unhappiness, agitation, or distress.

The "utilitarian" part deals with the overall impact of the action you take. The world is complicated. Oftentimes, actions simultaneously cause suffering and happiness. For instance, delivering a vaccine for a fatal disease might involve pain from the insertion of a syringe. But that's okay. Because the overall impact of delivering the vaccine will reduce the amount of suffering a thousand fold, so that the pin prick from the needle is negligible by comparison.

So, let's plug something like rape into this formula. Sure, the perpetrator of rape experiences some pleasure in the act. But this pleasure is DWARFED by the potential anguish, suffering, and trauma experienced by the victim. So the hedonist would be comfortable saying (in all but the most unlikely of circumstances) that rape is morally wrong.

That's the gist of it anyway, and I'm sure you have objections and concerns about hedonism. Let's hear them. The theory is far from problem-free, but I think it's a pretty decent moral theory. I have much more to say in defense of hedonism's objectivity, but my post would become long and strenuous if I anticipated your objections and tried to answer them all now. Better that you state each objections and I respond to each one by one.

***

I do want to point out that, yes, there are real world consequences for ignoring, say, that gravity is real. And, by contrast, morality seems to be something you can easily ignore. (The only "consequences" of immoral behavior are those imposed by society and others, and thus are different in nature to the laws of gravity.)

But not all beliefs about reality have consequences. Most scientists think that the core of Jupiter consists of metallic hydrogen. Let's suppose I disagree. I believe that the core of Jupiter is made of cotton candy. There really aren't any real world consequences for my erroneous belief, even though... let's face it... my belief is probably false. (The only "consequences" I might face for my belief is ridicule from my peers, but as I said before, that doesn't count.)

A moral realist contends that moral facts work much the same way. If someone doesn't care what the moral facts are, or willfully (or otherwise) has false moral beliefs, there's nothing we can do to stop them. A moral realist doesn't necessarily want to control other people's actions or beliefs. In many cases, like my own, figuring out objective ethics is a means of determining how *I* ought to comport myself in regards to my own actions.

Just like the scientist wants to know what the core of Jupiter is REALLY made of (and isn't necessarily motivated by convincing others to believe what she believes about the core of Jupiter), so to the ethicist is concerned with discovering the objective truth about the purported wrongness or rightness of a given action.
 
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mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
So, if we are taking shots in the dark about whether killing is good or bad, you have different results for whether it is right or wrong. So, to answer your specific line of criticisms, I would feel more comfortable defending hedonistic utilitarianism to demonstrate how a moral theory can help us make objective and consistent moral judgments.

In case you aren't familiar, hedonistic utilitarianism (hitherto "hedonism") is based on good/bad (valuation)-- which are my favorite kinds of ethical theories. (By contrast, there is deontology which is based on duty... but I don't really enjoy defending such theories.) A hedonist asks how you can do good for someone or how it might be determined that an action that you take might be considered wrong or immoral. Well, to the hedonist, such a question is easy to answer: it is good when you create pleasure, happiness, joy, or contentment in other beings, and it is bad when you cause suffering, unhappiness, agitation, or distress.

The "utilitarian" part deals with the overall impact of the action you take. The world is complicated. Oftentimes, actions simultaneously cause suffering and happiness. For instance, delivering a vaccine for a fatal disease might involve pain from the insertion of a syringe. But that's okay. Because the overall impact of delivering the vaccine will reduce the amount of suffering a thousand fold, so that the pin prick from the needle is negligible by comparison.

So, let's plug something like rape into this formula. Sure, the perpetrator of rape experiences some pleasure in the act. But this pleasure is DWARFED by the potential anguish, suffering, and trauma experienced by the victim. So the hedonist would be comfortable saying (in all but the most unlikely of circumstances) that rape is morally wrong.

That's the gist of it anyway, and I'm sure you have objections and concerns about hedonism. Let's hear them. The theory is far from problem-free, but I think it's a pretty decent moral theory. I have much more to say in defense of hedonism's objectivity, but my post would become long and strenuous if I anticipated your objections and tried to answer them all now. Better that you state each objections and I respond to each one by one.

***

I do want to point out that, yes, there are real world consequences for ignoring, say, that gravity is real. And, by contrast, morality seems to be something you can easily ignore. (The only "consequences" of immoral behavior are those imposed by society and others, and thus are different in nature to the laws of gravity.)

But not all beliefs about reality have consequences. Most scientists think that the core of Jupiter consists of metallic hydrogen. Let's suppose I disagree. I believe that the core of Jupiter is made of cotton candy. There really aren't any real world consequences for my erroneous belief, even though... let's face it... my belief is probably false. (The only "consequences" I might face for my belief is ridicule from my peers, but as I said before, that doesn't count.)

A moral realist contends that moral facts work much the same way. If someone doesn't care what the moral facts are, or willfully (or otherwise) has false moral beliefs, there's nothing we can do to stop them. A moral realist doesn't necessarily want to control other people's actions or beliefs. In many cases, like my own, figuring out objective ethics is a means of determining how *I* ought to comport myself in regards to my own actions.

Just like the scientist wants to know what the core of Jupiter is REALLY made of (and isn't necessarily motivated by convincing others to believe what she believes about the core of Jupiter), so to the ethicist is concerned with discovering the objective truth about the purported wrongness or rightness of a given action.

We are getting somewhere. The only problem that is left is if good and bad are universally the same in all humans for all cases or only some.
And I don't mean that I don't care about good or bad for you. I mean that even with caring for you, what is good for me is bad for you or so in reverse.
 

vulcanlogician

Well-Known Member
The only problem that is left is if good and bad are universally the same in all humans for all cases or only some.
And I don't mean that I don't care about good or bad for you. I mean that even with caring for you, what is good for me is bad for you or so in reverse.

Good and bad are often context-dependent in value-based moral theories. Deontologists, on the other hand, often use absolutes. Plato had a value-based moral theory and was also a moral absolutist. But modern renditions of value based ethics try to avoid absolutism.

Could you clarify what you mean?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Good and bad are often context-dependent in value-based moral theories. Deontologists, on the other hand, often use absolutes. Plato had a value-based moral theory and was also a moral absolutist. But modern renditions of value based ethics try to avoid absolutism.

Could you clarify what you mean?

Okay, we are know going to leave philosophy and turn to the everyday world.
And start with a theory that in effect is neither true nor false, but an aspect of the world. Lawrence Kohlberg's model of moral cognitive development.
The point is that in the meta-sense good and bad are different cognitive and emotional behaviors.

And now comes the problem of all models of true morality. They are all cognitive and emotional methodologies including your and mine.
But I were taught, then I should always allow for that I could be wrong, because I could miss something where as other models tend to claim that there is an over all correct way to do it.
Now it is the joke of self-correcting methods, who have build in that they haunt for false, versus those who hunt for truth.

In practice for you and I it is as us 2 irrelevant in a sense, because we could probably iron out a compromise. But on the large scale Kohlberg hits hard for how good and bad work in the everyday world.
And there are even other theories in sociology and psychology that we have to add.
 

vulcanlogician

Well-Known Member
Lawrence Kohlberg's model of moral cognitive development.

Kohlberg's theory explains how we develop our moral understanding, starting from toddlerhood to adulthood. Also note, that the final stage is where typically adjusted adults begin to draw on moral principles to form moral beliefs (rather than social factors).

Ethical philosophy BEGINS at this final stage. It is one way we can arrive at satisfactory ethical principles (by challenging them in the philosophical arena). This isn't the ONLY way to obtain ethical principles. But I think it's the best we got.

As Kohlberg points out, we first learn morality via coercion. THEN via a desire to conform. But (according to Kohlberg) a well-adjusted adult will "grow out" of these preliminary stages and eventually begin formulating moral principles on her own. Ethical philosophy merely provides an objective framework for how to proceed from there.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Kohlberg's theory explains how we develop our moral understanding, starting from toddlerhood to adulthood. Also note, that the final stage is where typically adjusted adults begin to draw on moral principles to form moral beliefs (rather than social factors).

Ethical philosophy BEGINS at this final stage. It is one way we can arrive at satisfactory ethical principles (by challenging them in the philosophical arena). This isn't the ONLY way to obtain ethical principles. But I think it's the best we got.

As Kohlberg points out, we first learn morality via coercion. THEN via a desire to conform. But (according to Kohlberg) a well-adjusted adult will "grow out" of these preliminary stages and eventually begin formulating moral principles on her own. Ethical philosophy merely provides an objective framework for how to proceed from there.

Yeah, maybe max 30% of all adults are the final stage of level 5 and 6. There is a reason that 5 and 6 are post-conventional.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I think this is the juiciest bit from all that you've said. I plan to respond to other things, but I feel I need to clarify my positions here first.

When I propose that moral judgments can be "objective," I simply mean as objective as math or as objective as science. Insofar as math may be (ultimately) not objective, then it would follow that morality also fails to be objective.

Is it correct to equate math and science as you have done? Would it be better to say, “as objective as math or as objective as language”? I think this highlights the potential to lose track of demarcation. Science is the mechanism to help ensure the language we use to describe the world remains synthetic to the world. By the same token, science would also be the mechanism to ensure that the mathematics we use to describe the world remains synthetic to the world. Both language and mathematics are abstract analytic constructs that allow us to think and communicate complex ideas and concepts including thinking and communicating about the real world. They can also be used to create concepts that do not map to the real world. If mathematics can produce results that are non-synthetic, then the whole field must be treated just like any other analytic creation of the human mind, be it language, world of Harry Potter, or taxonomic systems in Biology. If there is an intent to use an abstract system to talk about and understand the real world, a mechanism of verification is required to ensure such efforts remain synthetic.

But I'm hesitant to lump mathematics in with, say, the goings-on at Hogwarts. I brought up the Pythagorean theorem before. The Pythagorean theorem describes hypothetical right triangles that may not even exist. But what it says about right triangles applies to all right-triangle-shaped things that exist in the universe, both natural and artificial. In that sense, A^2+B^2=C^2 is objectively true.

Are there natural right triangles in nature or are there right triangle-ish things in nature? Can you divide 2 sheep by 3 and get 0.666666… (an infinitely repeating decimal by the way) sheep in the real world? What does 0.666666… sheep mean in the real world?

But objective facts can be both analytic or synthetic. We both agree that science gives us an increasingly more and more accurate picture of the world. We both agree that "scientific facts" like "Mars is further from the sun than the Earth" are true. And they are true regardless of what people think.

I disagree with this sentiment. Objective facts are what they are regardless of what or how anyone thinks of them. We use abstract language to describe objective facts as best we can, be that the language of word labels and associated definitions or the language of mathematics with its set of abstract constructs. How well or accurately these languages come to describing objective things is established through scientific evaluation and verification. Not everything requires scientific evaluation and confirmation in a practical sense, but even Aristotle got off track when he concluded heavier things fall faster than lighter things and considered it objective fact.

I said this earlier, but unlike an analytic system of our own design, we do not have all the defining properties and boundaries of the real world. We do not know all the rules yet. What science confirms or verifies is held only with some degree or level of confidence. We do not have the luxury of exactness that may be provided within a well constructed analytic system like mathematics in its purely analytic form. So while the objective nature of the real world hasn’t changed over millennia, our ability to accurately describe it has changed, has improved. We have gotten better at policing our use of abstractions to remain synthetic.

This is why I like to reserve the term objective for referencing those facts specifically considered to be synthetic to the real world and not to reference an analytic fact specific to an analytic system. And while we can have 100% confidence in the pythagorean theorem in the Domain of Mathematics, we only have confidence in its application to the real world to the extent that it is useful in describing or talking about things in the real world.

But, if you look at things, like how scientists arrived at conclusions about gravity and such, you're gonna find a WHOLE LOTTA mathematics underpinning those theories. If math is subjective, then it follows that science is also subjective. And I don't think either of us wants to say that. Furthermore, your notion that we keep mathematics around only because it is useful for us, could also be leveled at science. This line of thinking, if followed to its end, winds up at a kind of "universal relativism." And, as I said before, my defense of moral objectivism can only hold water in a reality that assumes some kind of Platonic Realism (ie. that there is one objective reality that we all make reference to, and that math and science help us understand that reality). If Platonic Realism of this kind is false, then I have no grounds to argue for moral objectivity, and I admit as much.

Science isn’t subjective, people are. :)

To my mind, this is a crucial and key concept. When trying to talk objectively about objective things, we require some mechanism to metaphorically get out of our own subjective heads and establish some objective footing outside of ourselves. This, to me, is the purpose of science and scientific inquiry. It provides the mechanism with which to establish that objective footing. Therefore, language and mathematics are subjective analytic constructs that can be useful in describing the objective world. Whether they are being used in a way that achieves that goal is determined by science. Do the abstract constructs continue to match empirical observation? Are the abstract constructs that we consider to be synthetic useful in predicting future events or phenomena? Are the constructs falsifiable?

We are hampered in our efforts to be objective by both our inherent limitations as human beings as well as our lack of omniscience regarding the Domain of the real world. Scientific inquiry does not necessarily guarantee objectivity, we can’t extract human beings from the inquiry process or suddenly obtain omniscience. It does appear, however, to successfully mitigate these limitations by providing an incremental approach to building an objective picture of the world.

I do not know all that is entailed in “Platonic Realism”, and for that reason I cannot adopt or use such a term. My position would be that there is “one objective reality that we all make reference to”, as you say, but that is a conclusion drawn from corroborated experience, corroborated in many ways, especially scientifically. I do not consider it an axiomatic assumption, rather, an empirical conclusion held with the appropriate level of confidence.

So, in the same way science and the scientific process is used to establish and maintain synthesis to the real world in the use of language and mathematics, so to would it be applied to abstract concepts and ideas in the Domain of morals and ethics to determine where and to what extent such ideas are synthetic, or representative of the real world. One must argue for objective morals on scientific grounds or by scientific means to establish objective status.


In mathematics, as well as in philosophy, axioms are not "subjectively chosen." They are proposed as self-evident truths. For example, Euclid's axiom that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. This is not a matter of opinion. Nor is it the product of a given person's "deciding" or "choosing" to see things that way. Furthermore, there are no underlying reasons or logical arguments that this is so. It is simply self-evidently true. It is impossible to see it otherwise, hence it is axiomatically true.

Now it complicates matters to bring in things like non-Euclidean geometry, wherein the axiom about straight lines is not evident. So, as it turns out Euclid's axiom is not as universal as Euclid took it to be. But it does not thereby become subjective. The axiom simply pertains only to Euclidean space. But, within the paradigm of Euclidean space, it is very much a self-evident truth, and it remains universal in the sense that it is true of all Euclidean space.

I think the ancients were very much interested in understanding the real world. In developing definitions for mathematical constructs, how they played out in the real world would be very much at the forefront of their minds, in my opinion. When I say that mathematical constructs are subjective, I simply mean that they are created in the subjective mind, that they are the product of the subjective mind. I agree that choices made by early mathematicians were not willy-nilly choices, but were informed by their real world experiences.

You have demonstrated above how mathematics is simply a communication tool in which the constructs are meant to be useful in communicating ideas and properties observed in the real world. When Euclidean geometry was found to be inadequate in describing non-Euclidean space, new constructs and concepts were required.

In this same way, Newton’s laws of motion that resulted in Classical Mechanics used the language of mathematics to describe the relationship of bodies in motion and the forces acting on them. This was later found to only be helpful under certain conditions, those below certain very high speeds, and objects within certain mass and distance limits. New mathematical constructs were found to be required outside of the range of conditions in which Classical Mechanics was predictive. Again, it is science that is the tool by which we evaluate whether our use of mathematical language continues to be useful or sufficient in describing our observed world, to determine how well such mathematical constructs represent or describe the objective world.

Whether or not numbers are real, or if mathematics is invented or discovered is a hotly debated topic. The fact that we haven't figured it out yet I don't think trips us up too much in our discussion about ethics. We can assume that mathematics and science are "objective enough" to make truth-claims that apply to the world. The video below is roughly five minutes long and makes some really salient points about how mathematics seems to be "embedded" in the natural world in the sense that it can (sometimes accidentally) reveal truths about the physical world... even though it could be reasonably argued (by some) that it is nothing more than a human construct. If morality even comes close to the kind of tenuous "objectivity" that math enjoys, I'd feel comfortable calling myself a moral realist.

(More to come. I need time to reply to some of your other points.)

If you have confidence in science as a means of establishing when our abstractions sufficiently represent objective phenomena, then I am happy. The objectivity of morals and ethics, or perhaps the extent or degree of objectivity, would then necessarily be established through scientific means.
 
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