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Stuffing Jesus into the OT

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Just_me_Mike, Jun 4, 2009.

  1. Just_me_Mike

    Just_me_Mike Well-Known Member

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    I do no think it is very hard to stuff Jesus into the OT once you layout or define the characteristics of Jesus and then compare to the OT.

    Many, rely on an understanding that the OT taught violence (mostly) and the Jesus taught peace (mostly), and that the God portayed was not the same God from OT to NT.

    When I examine the role or purpose surrounding Jesus in the NT I instantly see a figure promised in the OT. Without going off on tangents, can we at least start with this basic premise? The OT promised a savior to come? Doesn't matter if it was Jesus, but certainly that is one characteristic that fits both OT and NT.

    Regards
     
  2. tumbleweed41

    tumbleweed41 Resident Liberal Hippie

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    We can start on this premise by showing exactly where in the OT the savior is promised.
     
  3. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    I don't see the problem as one of prophecy, itwillend, but as the OT portraying a fundamentally different conception of God's personality and intentions than the NT, a sort of "eye for an eye," "smite your enemies" vs "love thy neighbor," return good for evil difference.
     
  4. fantome profane

    fantome profane Happy Black History Month. Stay Woke!
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    There is a lot of violence in the old testament no doubt about it. But there is also a lot of good stuff. Jesus (if he really existed) was a Jew, a Rabbi and student of the “old testament”. The best ideas that Jesus taught, love thy neighbour, love thy enemy, help the poor and needy, come directly from the old testament.

    itwillend is quite correct that the “characteristics” or the ideas of Jesus can be found in the old testament, but I am far from convinced that any prophecy or anything else in the OT refer to the actual person of Jesus.
     
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  5. Just_me_Mike

    Just_me_Mike Well-Known Member

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    Because I don't know your level of reading when it comes to the OT, allow me to ask a bit broader question before we move forward. Are you familiar with the concept of salvation spread throughout the entire OT? Doesn't matter in regard to what or how it was done, but that Salvation can be viewed as a large part of the OT.

    So, broadly speaking if God was so obsessed with saving his people and salvation through one means or the other, could it not be inferred rather easiliy that Jesus could be the pinnacle of this history unfolding that is portatyed in the OT. I think that is easy enough to comprehend when we are talking about concepts. Do you not agree?

    Take the name Jesus away for a minute and just talk conceptuals. Throughout the OT God promised salvation and often times granted it. In the NT salvation has apparently reached its climax. So they both are focussed on the same concept.

    Does this make sense? We can look at verses but I am not sure that is anymore helpful than covering the concepts as I have done.
     
  6. Caladan

    Caladan Agnostic Pantheist

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    Well said. its very superficial to simplify an entire scripture, especially the kind of the magnitude of the Hebrew Bible. one has to ignore or simply be ignorant of many of the celebrated books and words of the Bible.

    Naturally Jesus leaned on Jewish material, as it was his cultural identity, including the Hebrew scriptures, however, if its the other way around, and suggesting that the Hebrew Bible prophecises about Jesus means going into the world of subjective beliefs.
     
    #6 Caladan, Jun 4, 2009
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2009
  7. keithnurse

    keithnurse Active Member

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    I, also, don't believe the Hebrew Bible has any prophecies that Jesus fulfilled. Fundamentalist Christians say Jesus fulfilled 325 prophecies in the OT so he must be the messiah. If you look at those "prophecies" only a handful could rightly be called prophecies about anything. The rest are just statements that sound vaguely like something the NT says about Jesus i.e. Psalm 22. Even Isaiah chapter 53, which fundamentalists are fond of pointing to and saying "Isaiah 53 predicted exactly what would happen to Jesus", isn't clearly about Jesus. It doesn't say it is a prediction of something happening in the future. Has it ever occurred to fundamentalists that the writers of the gospels wrote the account of Jesus' last days with Isaiah 53 in mind? and wrote the story to match Isaiah?
     
  8. Just_me_Mike

    Just_me_Mike Well-Known Member

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    Well seeing I creted this topic, I can assure you I am not telling anyone there are 300 or and specific numbers pointing to Jesus. Please address my previous post (I think post 5) and then we can move on. Of course if you are not here to discuss, than nevermind.
     
  9. tumbleweed41

    tumbleweed41 Resident Liberal Hippie

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    I see "salvation: in the OT as Gods covenant with Abraham.[FONT=&quot](Gen 15:6-21),[/FONT][FONT=&quot](Gen 12:1-3),[/FONT][FONT=&quot](Gen 15:18-21),[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot](Gen 17).
    Also in the Laws of Moses ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]Exodus 20), (Leviticus)[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    And in other stories of "believe in me or perish" (Nineveh, Books of the Prophets, etc)
    [/FONT]
    I do not see how Jesus sacrifice can be inferred from anything I have read.

    If you mean to "insert Jesus here" even without the name "Jesus" we will need more than conceptualization. Lets look at the actual verses where the Messiah as personalized by Jesus is mentioned, or foretold in the OT.
     
  10. Smoke

    Smoke Done here.

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    I think it's harder than people realize. Even the author of Matthew didn't do it very well.

    Depends on what you mean by savior. In the Tanakh, "salvation" is national; God will redeem his people, or folk, and bring peace to the world. The Christian idea of a Savior who saves people from their sins and brings peace of mind doesn't correspond very closely to the Jewish Messiah; I think even Christianity recognizes this on some level, and that's part of the reason a belief in the Second Coming of Jesus is necessary. Jesus has clearly not fulfilled the prophecy of the Messiah, so if he is the Messiah, it must be that he will do so in the future.
     
  11. Just_me_Mike

    Just_me_Mike Well-Known Member

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    OK so we agree salvation is throughout talked about in the OT.
    Here you are making a comment about Jesus and his sacrifice. What did his sacrifice mean to you conceptually? What were the circumstances surrounding his sacrifice?
    I find very easily a troubled, perverted, and rebellious Jewish state according to NT. How is it hard to correlate what Jesus offered to his people and what God offered to his people? They both offered a promise of an everlasting kingdom. God in the OT offered Jerusalem and Jesus offered the New Jerusalem.

    In regard to this comment, I wanted to take this thread very slow because we can quickly deviate.
    The point of the topic is to first establish the similar traits of what God promised in the OT in regard to salvation, and what Jesus promised in regard to salvation.

    If we can't find similarites or solid connections with the subject of salvation that I don't see the point of moving to other areas.
     
  12. Just_me_Mike

    Just_me_Mike Well-Known Member

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    With all due respect God in the OT saved people from sin just as Jesus offered in the NT. The OT did deal moreso with nations, but we can't imply it was only concerned about nations simply because we read about nations. God many times saved a place for one person. So there are isntances of God working directly with single people for salvation in the OT.
     
  13. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    the Bible is the story of salvation-history. That much is true. However, the Jews don't append the NT onto that story. Only the Christians do that. So, in a literal sense, no. The OT is not dependent upon the NT for a "pinnacle" to the story.
     
  14. tumbleweed41

    tumbleweed41 Resident Liberal Hippie

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    Yes, salvation for the Hebrew people through a covenant and draconian laws.



    To me, he was killed for what he believed in.

    Apparently, he was killed in the same manner as many other rebels and self proclaimed messiahs.


    God offered peace through warfare and law.
    Jesus offered peace through forgiveness and understanding. Jesus never mentioned a "New Jerusalem"
    Both offered this peace to the Hebrew people.

    So be it, I though you were going to offer a solid connection between the OT and the NT regarding the messiah. My mistake.
     
  15. Just_me_Mike

    Just_me_Mike Well-Known Member

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    I never said or implied dependency. We are talking about correlating concepts. Just a light hearted discussion.
     
  16. keithnurse

    keithnurse Active Member

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    Yes salvation is a major theme in the Hebrew Bible and the NT. Modern Christianity, especially protestantism has made it more about individual salvation, and it's more therapeutic than the OT which is more about saving the Hebrews from their larger neighbors. If you believe that Jesus made a final sacrifice for all sin then I guess he would be the pinnacle, but he's not the pinnacle if you don't.
     
  17. Just_me_Mike

    Just_me_Mike Well-Known Member

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    This is not correct at all. God offered salvation based of the merit of the peoples heart. If their heart had gone astray God would judge them and not save them. Yes the Law was there and part of what was going on, but God was only concerned that people loved and followed his ways with all their heart and soul.

    Would you like lots and lots of verses to display that? It seems you are familiar enough with the OT for me to not have to do that. I am trying to have a discussion, and when need be we can copy and paste scripture, but I don't see a need yet.
    If this is the truly what God demanded of his people, how is this different than what Jesus demanded?
    This again is incorrect, Jesus simply said to the same requirement to love God with all you heart and soul.

    I am very interested in continuing this conversation, sorry if I implied otherwise. I just meant that we need to finish one subject before moving on to another.
     
  18. Just_me_Mike

    Just_me_Mike Well-Known Member

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    I personally believe Jesus offers nothing new than what was offered in the OT. If you love God with all your heart and soul you will be saved. that is all either asked for. My reference to a pinnacle was simply to state that the NT made it much more clear what salvation was all about, but not something different than what was in the OT.
    Abraham was saved for his belief just as someone in the NT was. At least that is how I have read it.
     
  19. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Given a malleable Jesus, a thoughtless shoehorn, and ignorance of the Torah you could no doubt shove it ...
     
  20. keithnurse

    keithnurse Active Member

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    I have heard that some Jews, probably Reform or Reconstructionist or Humanistic, are rethinking the entire Messiah concept itself. They are thinking that maybe the Messiah isn't going to be A man but maybe the messiah should be thought of as a messianic era or that the Jewish people as a whole will be their own messiah in the final analysis through a change in their collective consciousness or something like that. Also, the idea of "salvation" is being thought of apart from what happens after we die and more like salvation from aimlessness or greed or salvation from need to dominate others etc etc.
     
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