• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Strange statements from Paul

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
1This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. 2I told you before (1st witness), and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time (second witness); and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned (3rd witness), and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare: 3Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you. 2 Cor 13:1-3

Is Paul saying he is the first, second and third witness in this matter???
 

Zardoz

Wonderful Wizard
Premium Member
Welcome to RF!

I must be honest and say that as an Ebionite, I really don't care what Paul said.

Since I am just about the only MJ currently on the forum, you may not get an answer here.

If you wish I can move your thread to the root 'Abrahamic' DIR where it may get more response.

Shalom
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Interesting. My beliefs are the closest to the Ebionite faith as far as I know. I do not regarding Paul to be one of Yeshua's apostles. Let me know if you would ever like to discuss your beliefs. We may have more in common than you think.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
1This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. 2I told you before (1st witness), and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time (second witness); and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned (3rd witness), and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare: 3Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you. 2 Cor 13:1-3

Is Paul saying he is the first, second and third witness in this matter???

If I may, where in the Torah does it indicate that the two or three witnesses must be distinct persons? And didn't Y'shua Himself say the Father was His second witness before the Parush?

Put another way, would you be willing as a juror to convict someone if there was one eyewitness to the crime, not two or three, who testified, but multiple forensic evidences against the alleged criminal? Would that count for you as multiple witnesses?

I always took this statement as Paul saying he was playing on the Law to say he had ample evidence of consistent, persistent behavior. Of course he had other witnesses, there were people likely reporting to him from the church, he prayed about his findings and he never (or tried to never) travel alone...

...On another note, in the words of Sean Connery, "Zhardozh!" What a fun movie that is--cool avatar!
 

Mountain_Climber

Active Member
1This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. 2I told you before (1st witness), and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time (second witness); and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned (3rd witness), and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare: 3Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you. 2 Cor 13:1-3

Is Paul saying he is the first, second and third witness in this matter???

LOL:) I am glad you are not cooking for me and trying to follow a recipe.

Look at the CONTEXT: Witnesses One and Two: "I desired Titus, and with him I sent a brother. Did Titus make a gain of you? walked we not in the same spirit? walked we not in the same steps? Again, think ye that we excuse ourselves unto you? we speak before God in Christ: but we do all things, dearly beloved, for your edifying." 2 Corinthians 12:18-19

Paul is the third witness as to the particular subject he is there addressing.

All rejections of Paul are just as carelessly made.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
LOL:) I am glad you are not cooking for me and trying to follow a recipe.

Look at the CONTEXT: Witnesses One and Two: "I desired Titus, and with him I sent a brother. Did Titus make a gain of you? walked we not in the same spirit? walked we not in the same steps? Again, think ye that we excuse ourselves unto you? we speak before God in Christ: but we do all things, dearly beloved, for your edifying." 2 Corinthians 12:18-19

Paul is the third witness as to the particular subject he is there addressing.

All rejections of Paul are just as carelessly made.
Except Paul wasn't referring to Titus in this passage. He was clearly stating that he was the first, second and third witness.
 

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
All Paul was saying was that what Jesus said at Mt 18:16, (see also De 19:15) applied to that congregation. The tie-in is not how many times he attempted to see them, but that there were matters that may still need judicial attention within the congregation and that rule must be followed. He just got done writing:

"For I am afraid that somehow when I arrive, I may not find you as I wish and I may not be as you wish, but instead, there may be strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, dissension, backbiting, whispering, (or "gossip.") being puffed up with pride, and disorder. Perhaps when I come again, my God might humiliate me before you, and I may have to mourn over many of those who previously sinned but have not repented of their uncleanness and sexual immorality and brazen conduct (or "shameless conduct.") that they had practiced."
- 2 Cor 12:20,21

Paul did not actually succeed in arriving in Corinth 3 times. He actually visited the Corinthians twice. After his first visit, at which time he established the congregation, he made a plan for a second visit, which failed. But “the third time” that he planned or got “ready” he was successful, for he was able to see them again in about 56 C.E. (2Co 1:15; 12:14; 13:1) So he was not applying himself to being witness 1, 2 and 3 from 3 separate occasions.

All he was reminding them was to not overstep the rule and that he was attempting to visit them again. If there were matters still that needed addressed, upon arriving he would see to it that they got handled - provided the witnesses were presentable.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Physical actions or habits aren't prayer. they were never meant to be, they were cultural instructions. "Like the heathens'', unless it relates to theological beliefs, just relates to tribal separation, it isn't religious or spiritual.

/disciple
 
Apostle Paul indicated that the principle in the Law of establishing every matter at the mouth of two or three witnesses applies in the Christian congregation.
 
Top